Here we go again! Talks of boycott of French products for retaliating against the French government’s position on the Iraq post-war UN mandate are making the rounds in Washington, and elsewhere. Is this just a new development, or the continuation of the "malaise" between USA and France? What do you think of boycots in general? Is this what the oldest friendship beteen nations has to come to?
Due to the somewhat acrimonous debate, please refrain from vulgar, defamatory judgements. These do not help the debate and will be deleted without notice. That being said, everyone is welcome to share their thoughts and ideas about this very controversial issue.
SalB: calling Amero-Franc a simpleton isn’t a derogatory comment. It is a statement of fact.
And, NO, I never said that all Americans love Bush. I would never say something like that becuase I know this isn’t true. I don’t appreciate being paraphrased incorrectly by Amero-Franc, but then again, this just proves everything I’ve said about him. Thus, the statements of fact that I mentioned in the above paragraph.
I don’t know how many older or younger citizens are registered to vote, I know I’ve been registered to vote since I could legally vote in my first election! Voting is a wonderful privledge that many Americans take for granted. Every citizen should go out and vote in the November election. What else is more important than choosing who the leader of the USA will be?
LaVieilleBranche: It is good to see that SalB is assisting in the education of amero-franc. SalB is extremely thoughtful and amazingly patient with all of us. Personally, I think Bush II would be the kind of guy you could meet at the pub and start "pounding em down." Then again, I guess he did do that… Donerail
LaVieilleBranche.
It doesn’t matter if it’s a fact or not. If I am a simpleton let me show it. not you!
When you say it only shows how much harder it is to show it the natural way. (pure observation)
Amero-franc: You are portraying the simpleton in an outstanding fashion. You are almost at perfection in that regard. Donerail
This is what I’m talking about, donerail. The argument gets lost in all these silly asides. If you stay on topic, it’s much easier to follow the line of thought. (Besides, nobody is perfect!)
Ouch. I think I was just hit with the ruler. And it was amero-franc who started it…Donerail
Hitting with a ruler is violence. I’m against that. I believe in psychological torture, i.e. guilt feelings . . . like any good mother!!
SalB: Thanks, Mom. We will take good care of Amero-franc while you are on vacation. Donerail
And sweird, interestingly enough, your post is not teher anymore. Could it have been censored? If that is case my congratulations go to the site manager!
From the Forums Admin:
To Everyone,
We just edited out a few posts that were branching way off topic. Our apologies to those who had contributed these posts, but we felt it would be clearer for future readers if we pruned the whole nascing branch off.
Remember that hate-filled messages have no place on these forums and will be deleted without prior notice.
Please enjoy our forums responsively!
Now, back to the post:
Amero-Franc: <snip> Had the francecom forum master deleted it, he would of left a message saying that the post was censored or deleted. However, this isn’t the case. So I think Sweird deleted the post after he wrote it. However, I saw it also.
DrEska: this world will never be a kind, loving place. Too many people/nations have their own self interest at heart and don’t care about anybody or anything else. From what I see, this isn’t getting any better, it’s just getting worse.
Forums Admin:
I understand your message and your concerns. I have a low tolerance of bigotry as well. I don’t know if its a liability issue with the site or what, but I have to tell you that I am not a big fan of censorship. Donerail
Sorry, donerail, I disagree. France.com is not censoring per se. The site has a specific purpose; the forums have a specific purpose and there are rules spelled out for all to see (if they will read them).
When you disobey the rules or you go off topic, you will be deleted or edited. That is not censorship. It is simply doing what you have clearly stated you will do. If people do not want posts edited, they must follow the rules. That’s pretty easy for anyone to understand.
Donerail . . . You said you would behave while I was gone. What has happened to all of you?!?!?!?
BTW, Sacramento, California is a really nice city. Two rivers converge so it’s very green, unlike the desert where we live. Old town is fun and the nearby wineries reminded us of Napa twenty years ago. Highly recommended for a brief US vacation.
Hello Donerail,
Believe it or not, we don’t like censorship either! We always regret having to use it. Deleting a sub-thread that was getting nowhere except to a place where people were fighting over a useless remark, is not censorship, it’s common sense. What can this seemingly endless bickering started by a rather mindless post can possibly add to the forums? Absolutely nothing.
And so it is. It is our policy to just delete posts that are in the same vein. We respect and revere the right of people to think and write what they believe in, as long as it is respectful of others, and as long as the posts do not degenerate into mindless rants.
I’m sure you understand…
SalB and Forums Admin: I don’t know who’s post was deleted or "censored." All I know is that I revere freedom of speech and expression. I am sorry that I will have to leave these forums. I wish you all well. Donerail
You know, you would have drawn far less attention to the posts in
question if you had let them stand. Now many are wondering what was
said. I did see the post that started this and it could have easily
been argued away. That is what you have now eliminated, the counter
points. If something has no merit, let the posters prove it, other-
wise some people who saw the post might think it has merit and
you are trying to protect your name sake.
I didn’t see the post either, but I know who the posters were and have a pretty good idea of what may have been said. I just don’t feel degrading, demeaning, obscene and derogatory remarks have any place on a public travel forum. There are, as we have noted before, children on these forums. One even commented once that she/he was surprised that adults acted the way we do. That is condemning in itself.
Too often freedom of speech is invoked to allow things that 90% of us would not allow in our living rooms. Freedom must be used responsibly or it is no freedom at all. When we abjure responsibility, we abjure freedom.
If we want freedom, we need to behave (and post) as responsible adults or freedom descends into chaos and there is nothing grand and glorious about chaos.
. . . and if you want to know how I really feel . . .
BTW, maxpower, I asked a friend in Boston to find the cheese shop you mentioned. It is only two blocks from where he works and they do, indeed, have Temptation of St. Felician cheese. He bought one and ate it for me.
Hopefully, we can visit him in Boston soon and eat one for ourselves. Thank you so much for the information!
Hi to all,
Reaaly surpised by the way it going right now. The hateful and racist remarks made by sweird has no room here. The were exactly what the nazis were writing about the Jews between 1931 and 1940. The only difference is that sweird was saying the same exact words about Arabs. These comments have to be stopped and I believe sweird excluded from the forum.
I really congratulate the Forums_Admin for your deleting the message but I would like you to note that it was not bickering about something silly, it was resisting neo-nazi remarks such as those made by sweird.
Never again
Donerail,
We hope you will reconsider your position about leaving us. You have been an articulate and very interesting poster, with always something interesting to say.
That being said, we have 2 very simple rules: no racist or sexist remarks will be allowed, and you need to respect others while engaged on our forums. That’s it.
If you want to call censorship editing out the posts that go against these 2 rules that are clearly spelled out, well, so be it. We’ll stick to our policy.
FC
DrEska.
Sweird comments were pretty bad, but they were nowhere near "what the nazis said about the Jews in 1940". You really can’t call that neo-nazi propaganda, it’s just plain racism. You don’t need to go to the extreme to call it what it is: petty racism.
I agree that the discussion and the theme is not silly in itself, but the posts that were edited out were…
PC
Maxpower,
You’re right, the posts could have ‘easily been argued away’. But that was not what was happening. In any event, our role is not to draw attention or not to posters and their writing, our role is too keep a place where people can participate freely and where they can exchange ideas, opinions, tips, etc…
The posts were degenerating into name-calling and mindless bickering (my apologies DrEska, but it is really our feeling). That does not make for a place where people feel free to exchange ideas and make new people want to participate.
FC
Francecom,
I encourage ypu to read the comments made in the begining of the 30s when Hitker was campaining. The nazis remarks were milder that when he got into power. There are many sites you can visit to that effect
Let me explain the real reason why I was taken off this forum. I said that the Arabs were taking over the French street in Paris. That is not racist. Half the Parisians will tell you that. I said that if you want France go to Quebec. See that’s why I was taken off. It was because of conflict of interest. This web-site is about tourism to France and the Admin wouldn’t like that advise to be taken. Maybe I don’t blame him. Let me give France the plug then-They have great Architecture and it’s probably better than they have in Quebec. It’s just that they’re memories of a once great civilization.
Please take everything I said in context. What I’ve said before about the Arabs was in favor of them and against some of the racists on this forum.
Did I say that that any action sould be taken against the Arabs. I didn’t say anything except the obvious if you go to Paris.
Sweird: I also saw your deleted post, and what you’re saying now is definately NOT what you had written in the past that was deleted. So don’t even try to cover up your blunder.
You screwed up big time. Admit it, you were censored for it. Considering that the forums admin almost never censor anything, the fact that they deleted your hateful comment shows everybody what kind of person you truely are.
I think it was a good idea to censor sweird’s comment. Although I’m not a fan of censorship, sweird’s comment was really NASTY and hateful. It would of caused more fighting and arguing than we are doing now. Better to delete it, as it served no purpose other than to inflame everybody’s emotions and to stir up trouble.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh…summer vacation
)) I’m off for the summer, I dont have to return to work until September. The life of a proff 
)))
This means I’ll have lots of time to scan my French photos and post them online in my photo gallery. I’l let you know when the pix are ready for viewing
Because of the weak dollar, I won’t be going to France this summer…sighhhhh….
I will indeed miss Paris in the summer…the sales! 
the museums, the wonderful brasseries, the Jura region and Beaune! the little cafes….however I will go to Montreal/Quebec for a few days. For me this is a 1 day drive away, and it is much cheaper for me to drive to Quebec than take an airplane. With Al Quaida threatening more airplane hijackings, I’m staying on terra firma for the summer 
Sweird,
I’m not exactly sure what you said, but you’re just trying to create a hysteria. Everyone knows that you deleted it yourself. I can’t delete my posts so I guess you’re some type of admin or moderator or something. I’m not sure why FrancCom would make you one, but I think that’s what you are.
I understand that there are a lot of Arabs in France. It might not be very long before France is Algerie Norde, but hey they invited them there. They”re bringing them in, but they don’t seem to fit in very well. They’re being mistreated because of this. I really think that they might be treated better somewhere else, but of course deportation is considered racist. I’m not easternaphobic. I’m studying eastern languages. So no one try to label me as that.
A lot of the French are quite racist, not all, but a lot. I know that mass droves of the Jews are leaving France because of this. Other indigenous small ethnic groups are leaving as well.
I don’t know what racial slur you uttered, but I don’t even know any racial slurs for Arabs anyway. I’m really surprised you would say something like that.
Amero-Franc, Anyone can delete their own posts if they want to. Just click on "Edit" at the bottom of your comment, then highlight your text and hit "delete." This leaves it blank . . . gone. You do not have to be an administrator to do this. So, yes you can delete your own posts and Sweird is not an administrator.
This is a site to encourage travel to France. Why would an administrator make racist remarks and denigrate the very country he was suppose to be touting? That doesn’t make any sense at all.
I had tried to delete a post…the site won’t let you delete completely a post…it will only let you EDIT a post….i know.. I tried…
non, swierd isn’t an admin here and i’m glad!
pardon for the spelling errors, i’m on my 3rd kir and getting a bit tipsy!
ahhhhhhhhh nothing like a French kir! 
SalB: I had to calm down a bit before writing this final post. I appreciated your commentary on travel-related subjects a lot more than your lecturing or pontificating in these political threads. You pontificate more than I do, and thats going some. Telling me about the websites terms and conditions was somewhat condescending as well. Believe me when I tell you that I understand full well what france.com’s "rules" are. We all have our own rules. But all that aside, re-read your post of some while back. You said that we ‘can have freedom IF we all behave’ – wow! Isn’t that special. I’m sure the Founding Fathers would have a field day with that one. George III sure would have loved it. And all those who fought so hard for all of our cherished freedoms (speech, press, religion…) will wonder as well what was meant by "if we behave." As far as maintaining a sense of decorum because some kids maybe reading this stuff – SalB, give me a break. You need to take a big dose of reality pills if you think those kids are going to be corrupted by anything that they read on here. They would be well-served to to be reading from this site – whatever it is that we write here (including sweird’s drivel) – compared to what they get elsewhere on the net and on TV and within their own peer groups. You need to get out more often SalB if you really believe what you wrote. I don’t know why it is that some people want everyone else to act and think like him or herself. Since you feel that way, maybe you can explain the phenomenon. Or maybe you can tell us SalB, what books you would like to have banned from our schools or even burned. Or maybe just "edited" as you are so fond of saying. That actually frightened me a bit. That is the attitude that gets the likes of Jerry Falwell and AG John Ashcroft all fired up and ready to go. I think now you should take care of that snake oil salesman from Pakistan and his 16 billion countrymen. And to think that post DIDN’T get censored. (or edited as you would prefer)
Forum Administrator: I can’t believe you have had the colossal gall to disguise your censorship behavior as being the result of applying standards of good taste or decency as defined by yourself. It is censorship – plain and simple. It is your site and you can censor all you want. It is just so unnecessary. When we signed up as users, we all agreed to accept your legal counsel’s Terms and Conditions. You know full well that that event was a lot more than just asking us to "behave ourselves." We agreed to "behave ourselves" as we would not be allowed to post messages if we did not accept the TOS. As I am sure you are well aware (or should be) that has the effect of trasferring liability for libel, defamation, and other legal issues from the Website to the Poster. You have installed filters for deemed objectionalble language (hopefully with George Carlin’s help) and you perform documented oversight from time to time that negates any need for outright censorship. Since the identities of the individual posters are not known to one another, there is nothing, absolutely nothing that can be written on these forums that can be injurious to any of them. They may become angry, sad, or outraged but they were not harmed. I don’t know if this site is your main business. If it is, here is some free advice: Since its inception, you have had about 13 thousand users. Not exactly a threat to your competition. And you have one of the very best domain names. The most popular thread are those that involve political debate or conflict as evidenced by the number of posts and passion put forth. There are educational courses devoted exclusively to debating. The purely travel related posts are not big hitters as most people know how to use the internet for that purpose. (Even then, SalB will always politely tell them how and where to click their mouse.) I think most people come here to pick up a tidbit or so on France and then maybe stayed because they were entertained or facinated by the political forums. Censoring is the worst action that you can take. The internet is the antithesis of censorship. Hell, the recipe for the A-Bomb is out there in plain English and you want to censor (or "edit as SalB would so ineloquently say) the poster. This will have the impact of driving people away. We don’t need another Big Brother to guide us thru our politically correct lives. We have enough of it as it is. We are treated as criminals at airports, museums, sporting events – and now you want to exercise your censorship powers to shelter us from the rantings of folks like sweird (or me). Well, I would rather see and hear his rantings so that I know its out there and not suppressed by well meaning folks like yourself, SalB, Dr. Eska, and LaVieilleBrance. It has forced me to take my charm, wit, intellect, and prose elsewhere. Good luck to all. Donerail
after reading donerail’s post, I have to say that I agree with him. Better to let the whole world see sweird’s arrogance and ignorance, then delete it and cause a furor….too bad donerail is gone
Hey Theboss!
I’m glad to see there’s hope for you
I had not entirely give up on you, I must say.
Anyway, you did come across as saying "well, I make 12 grand a grand a month and you don’t, so your opinion is irrelevent"…
As for boycotting stores that are rude to you, absolutely! I’m surprised you even went on buying anything from them.I would have stormed out of there without whatever it was I intended to buy and made a big fuss out of it. I hate it when stores are rude. There is simply no excuse for that in the world we live in. That’s the only type of boycott I indulge in.
BTW, I said the French *can* be rude, not that they are rude all the time. The fact that you intend to spend some of your obviously hard-earned retirement there is proof that there’s something else at play there. It’s just all rudeness and arrogance. There is something that draws you there. That’s what I was trying to say.
But please, whenevere you are ready, do yourself a favor and try not to brag about how much you make, or you were making. I’m giving you this advice in good faith, because I want you to enjoy the time you spend in France. It does seem that you’ve worked hard for it.
Peace.
"You dont like what somebody says so you try to censor them, or have their posts pulled for "supposed" insults.
I know some high school students with more maturity than you.
This is a forum and we still have the right to FREE SPEECH. If you don’t like what is being said, then you don’t have to be here. "
By LaVieilleBranche
"
In a move the United States hailed as an important show of international unity, the U.N. Security Council on Thursday unanimously adopted the U.S.-backed resolution on Iraq. ".
After much wrangling, France and the US have finally agreed on this issue. Common sense says the boycott is over (or should be).
Should we leave this forum open, or should we all use our energies to discuss another subject? All ideas will be welcome.
Forums Admin
PS: We realize that the US-Franco rift will probably resurface soon, and so we shall leave this forum open for the time being.
" I am for free speech in whatever form and I would not want those people censored."
By Donerail Ethics Thread, Page 1, Bottom of page
I think that any sensible American can bury the hatchet on this one. Remember, the French helped up out in Afghanistan. The only reason why they didn’t this time was because they could start an uprising and Chirac has too much pride to admit it. (All the Moslem-Extremist-terrorist-immigration) He has to say it’s on principle. I think we really agreed all along. It’s just that it feels better to say the imposable is wrong. This vote in the UN shows that we in reality don’t hate each other. The boycott may have been a good thing, but if we boycott them no matter what happens the point of the boycott is defeated. It becomes more of an abuse than a punishment. We need to understand France’s problem with being attacked internally and not just bash them because they are French. Instead of bashing them, help them re-fight the battle of tours. What else was the boycott for besides the war in Iraq? It’s purpose is over.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
I will say what I said before:
"Freedom of speech does not mean you can say anything you want while on someone elses domain.
If a News Paper doesn’t like what someone says it’s perfectly okay if they deside to fire him.
This web-sight is not operated by the Government, so who ever owns the domain can regulate what is said.
The Admin has perfect right to do anything he wants to your posts. Even it this was the case when you clicked the I agree button you denied all rights to your posts."
Donerail and LVB seemed to been taught well by what I said. I think that the Admin had full right to pull sweird’s post. I just wander if Donerail KY and LVB really agree or if they are just playing to the times.
Amero-Frank,
You’re wrong on this one. You asked, "What else was the boycott for besides the war in Iraq? This new resalution by the UN (United Nazis) hasn’t changes my mind. My reasons just haven’t been met. Why do I say this:
http://www.boycottfrance.com/history_french_anti_semitism.php
http://www.boycottfrance.com/mission_statement.php
May be that will change you mind about the French really sharing our cause.
It never ceases to amaze me that some people will profess to be your friends until you disagree with them. Suddenly, you are the "bad guy." Well, I guess I’m on donerail’s bad guy list now because I truly believe that when you read the Terms of Service and agree to them, you are obligated to abide by them. If that makes me a nazi book burner, someone is very confused. That is a pretty long stretch and one wonders about the mind that can stretch the truth so far to serve its own purposes.
Amero-Franc is correct in saying all magazines and newspapers edit their material. The other travel forums certainly edit their material. If it’s printed, it’s edited. (BTW, you have the power to delete anything you have said. You may not be able to remove a thread but you can delete every word you wrote. Just highlight and delete and hit Update.)
Yes, there are other travel forums that are much more well attended, but they are older forums, they have travel book connections for advertisement and their names might not be as catchy as france.com, but they are very well known names in the travel industry. I think one of the reasons there aren’t more people on this forum is that the first thing you pull up on the forums is this political commentary. It is not particularly well informed and very impolite if not downright childish. Therefore, I believe most travel oriented individuals simply move on to what they perceive as a more travel oriented forum.
I have complained in the past and continue to believe that this should be a travel forum and not a political forum. There are plenty of political forums for those who want to engage in mindless argument. More people might join if the political threads were simply moved to the bottom of the list.
Further pontificating, I know exactly how teenagers behave and what they are exposed to these days. My feeling is that rather than give them more of the same, we should try to bring them something a bit more uplifting, i.e., set a good example. If adults act like teenagers, why bother growing up? It’s always more fun and certainly much easier to do exactly what you want to do without regard for the feelings of others. If, however, you show them that you can abide by the rules you have purportedly agreed to and still engage in meaningful dialogue and have a bit of fun in the process, I think you have helped them and put yourself in your best light. Teenagers do respect self discipline.
As for the accusation that I want "everyone else to act and think like him or herself," I’m the one who has been defending other’s rights to say what they believe without being demeaned and belittled. Donerail is the one who wants "everyone else to act and think like him or herself." When someone voices an opinion that differs from his, he calls them stupid, ignorant, an idiot or calls into question their education. Now, where is freedom of speech in that? What have you proved by calling someone names? The only proof I see in that is the proof that you don’t know enough to defend your ideas so you resort to name calling. This may or may not be true but it is a definite impression.
If donerail is gone, I guess the need for pontificating is gone. So this should end it.
Sweird;
I read your first comment and I understand about Frances Anti-Semitism, but if we boycott them we not only hurt those who are racists, but also those who are Jews who live there as well. Are we making the racial hatred better by trying to impoverish the French? The last time Europe had extreme economic trouble they blamed it on the Jews and 6 million of them died. I understand what youre trying to say, but Im not sure that that strategy would work. However, it does seem that more and more that we might possibly have to choose between France and Israel as our friend, but on the other hand what does the French street think? A lot of these French politicians might just be left over from the old racists in Vichy France. Perhaps most of the French dont share their sentiments.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
SalB: This is my last post. You took some shots there that I just can’t let pass. You are so thin skinned it is almost alarming. The name of this thread is "Boycott Redux" with the largest number of posts. It is a politcal thread that begs for debate. If you can’t handle it, you should confine yourself to the travel threads. You are very well received and respected there. When you want to lecture me or anyone else on the benefits of censorship, be prepared to defend yourself and put forth a better argument than you just did. It would be nice if we shared the same opinion but it is not the end of the world if we don’t. You apparently feel comfortable with the concept of censorship. If you want to treat that as an indictment, feel free to do so. I don’t like censorship and I don’t like folks who want to stiffle debate. Check out the title of this thread again, SalB and come up with a better position than just attacking the messenger. Donerail
I am new to the group but find this forum very interesting. I have watched all the France bashing but have to say that the 10 times I have been to France I have enjoyed the people I have met and simply love everything about this country and culture. Most of my visit have been for business but I have also visited for the fun of it. (I speak French fluently but do not write in French very well)
I am also an American Patriot (former Paratrooper 82nd Airborne)
and I can love the USA and love France at the same time with no problem at all. I wish countries had a better relationship but time
may take care of that like it has in the past.
Great website.
Ren
"Date Posted: Jun/01/2004 8:01 PM
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SalB: I know you are not comfortable in these political forums. Don’t leave them though. You add so much knowledge and common sense to the arguments. You are an excellent protagonist, so don’t leave. Donerail"
My my how the opinions change with the wind . . .
Amero-franc,
I understand that some innocent people might get hurt because of this boycott, but this is not the 1930′s. Today, everyone considers everything wrong as a crime against the government; especially in France. So, when peolple are mad that their not doing as well economically asx they wanted to, they will just complain that is thier government’s fault.
For those of you who still aren’t convinced about the French government being racist, just yesterday Chirac was the only one who vetoed the resalution condiming the anti-semitic remarks by the head of state in Malaysia. At least Italy condimed him. The Frenh President is just plain racist.
How else are we supossed to wake up the people of France. I know you said that we need to help France, but we really can’t work with them untill they get a new President. This boycott is about the only way we can wake up the French people.
I’ve always found it rather offensive when people say I should "watch what I say becuse of the children." The Internet was NOT MADE FOR CHILDREN! This is a PUBLIC forum. If a "child" (and i use that term loosely) doesn’t like what he sees here, then he is free to leave and go a sesame street site. It’s the old saying, "if you don’t like what you see, then turn it off." I however, will not moderate my opinion because a "child" might see it. They have no business being in an adult political forum. If they don’t like it, then leave.
Just something to think about:
Not only did we save the French out in WW I & II, but we helped them out in Vietnam when the French military ran off. We paid dearly in Vietnam for trying to stick up for your colony, so why didn’t you help us out in Iraq? Is this a one way friendship or what?
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
Your principal must love you.
This is to ‘Iboycottfrance’..what you said about how you boycott anything french and will continue doing so is completely wrong, and stupid of you to say. I am american, and yes, of course there are some stupid things going on with SOME of the French people, mainly the government…and of course some of them hate us. But not ALL French people are like that, that’s like them hating all Americans just because there are some seriously insane and idiotic americans out there. That doesn’t make all of us like that. My sister lives in France, and she says that so far everyone over there has been completely kind and generous, they are curious to learn about the Americans, and they have all said that they don’t hate Americans whatsoever. I will be moving to France in January and I can’t wait to do so. They are smart, and educated. I love being an american, I’m proud of it, and I am someone who supports everything that is going on right now, except for the fact that we have idiotic people out there, such as yourself, that hate a whole country because of thier government, or a group of people. Maybe you should try learing things about them and actually get the facts before you judge an entire country.
SalB: This is my last post. My opinion is not changing with the wind. I believe you should stay in these political forums. (Don’t go to Pakistan. I think your knowledge and wisdom with regard to travel in France is unsurpassed.) My prior comment above was addressing your apparent discomfort with these debates based upon your alarmingly defensive responses. Now that I see you are actually enjoying yourself, I applaud your attendance. I do think, however, you would be more comfortable in a Convent. I forgot to comment on a couple of the shots you took with respect to your prior post. The accusation that you directed towards me was that I attacked and called those who disagreed with me as idiots, uneducated, etc. This certainly is true with respect to sweird, ikorrellim, amero-franc and some others. I referred to them that way because I believe it to be an appropriate description of those folks – not necessarily due to the fact that they disagreed with me. I guess you made that attacking generalization because you feel the need to get a response. I will take the bait. Point out for me any occasion where I have called you a name or demeaned you in any way when you have disagreed with me. If you can, I will apologize for that. Another important point, SalB, you appended the word "nazi" to my comment on the banning and burning of books. I would never confine that activity to just those folks nor was I putting an armband on you. You must be really losing it SalB to have made that leap. Now back to the main issue. As a schoolteacher you should be embarrassed to defend attacks on freedoms of speech and press. You can dance around the issue all you want and impute all sorts of altruistic motives to your hazy position, but what we all saw in this forum was an attack on freedom of speech. You have embraced censorship here because it allows for a higher sense of decorum for the teenage visitors. That position is also embraced by amero-franc which should give you cause for thought. I don’t know how to express it in more diplomatic terms, SalB, but you position is just plain disappointing. I am guessing that you subscribe to The Smithsonian. If so, there is a moving article in the latest edition with respect to the 2nd Continental Congress and the events leading up to July 2, 1776. You might want to read that and then reconsider your position. Since we are having a "frank and open discussion" as evidenced by your aforementioned post, let me offer an observation in return for your contemplation. I notice how you immediately gave crc95 and all the readers the definition of "plebicite." I realize that writing style is a very subjective attribute. But I would have relied on the their ability to look up the definition themselves rather than assume that they would be ingnorant. Need any more examples of this SalB? I guess if Donerail is going the need for pontification is going as well. (Maybe your defensiveness has rubbed off on me. Then, again, maybe what upsets me the most is that some folks got to see the censored sweird post and I didn’t. I guess that is just one of those problems associated with managing censorship.) Donerail
This is to ‘Iboycottfrance’..what you said about how you boycott anything french and will continue doing so is completely wrong, and stupid of you to say. I am american, and yes, of course there are some stupid things going on with SOME of the French people, mainly the government…and of course some of them hate us. But not ALL French people are like that, that’s like them hating all Americans just because there are some seriously insane and idiotic americans out there. That doesn’t make all of us like that. My sister lives in France, and she says that so far everyone over there has been completely kind and generous, they are curious to learn about the Americans, and they have all said that they don’t hate Americans whatsoever. I will be moving to France in January and I can’t wait to do so. They are smart, and educated. I love being an american, I’m proud of it, and I am someone who supports everything that is going on right now, except for the fact that we have idiotic people out there, such as yourself, that hate a whole country because of thier government, or a group of people. Maybe you should try learing things about them and actually get the facts before you judge an entire country.
Come to think of it, the parents of your students must love you too.
Yes, it is a public forum but you probably (I hope) wouldn’t yell at someone (upper case letters) or call them names in public so why is the Internet any different? Just because we don’t know your name or who you really are doesn’t give you the right to call us idiots or ignorant.
I’m not speaking about "Sesame Street" aged children. I’m talking about teenagers, particularly the younger ones. Some find this site searching the web for information for homework. It would be nice if they could find useful information delivered in a pleasant manner. It would be nice if they could experience logical debate rather than finding a group of adults who act the same as or worse than they do when their parents aren’t watching.
Of course they can go elsewhere, but wouldn’t it be nice if they stayed and participated with us? Do we really want to discourage future Francophiles?
Why do they have no business in an adult political forum? It is public. They’re allowed to walk the public streets; ergo, they are allowed to participate in the public forum. You wouldn’t walk down a public street naked so why let it all hang out in a public travel forum? We simply cannot all do exactly what we want to all the time. There are certain norms of public behaviour that create what we call civilization.
I completely agree with Camille! Not every french person hates Americans. I don’t like this hispanic guy at my school, does that mean I hate all hispanics…No, my best friend is hispanic, so that would be completely gay…
SalB: This is one of my last posts. Your post to LaVieilleBranche tells me you are really losing it. Those are nice dreams that you have but they are still dreams. This is the internet and people will behave however they damn well please. And that is as it should be. Lighten up a bit. I got such a good feeling defending sweird’s right to say whatever it was that he said. Its the real world out there, SalB and yes we can all make a difference out there. If you think the internet is the real world, please be careful because it is not. Donerail
"iboycottfrance"…This is FRANCE.com…if you boycott anything French, why are you on this site? Just so you can bash other French people? Yeah, that’ll make the French like Americans. Boycotting anything of their’s will just make those who hate us hate us even more, and those who didn’t will probably start to. So think about what you do before you do or say it.
Quite frankly, I defined plebiscite because I had to look it up myself. It’s not a word I use on a daily basis.
I didn’t accuse you of calling me names. You have always treated me with the respect I wish you could accord other members of the forum. You seem to have taken it upon yourself to announce which forum members are not intelligent. If people are not intelligent, it is apparent in their posts. You don’t need to tell the world. (Conversely, if you tell them they are ignorant, that doesn’t make it so.)
Since, I’m a liberal, I considered being called a book burner as offensive as if you had said the "N" word; hence, my leap.
As far as editing, that’s what editors do; they edit. You certainly can’t call every editor a censor. They have a publication (or forum); they have a purpose; they have a goal. It is their job to make certain that what is written in their publication reads well and serves the purpose of their publication (or forum) and is easily followed and easily understood. Most editors simply work for a publisher and follow the guidelines given to them. The guidelines here, as I have mentioned ad nauseum, are the Terms of Service.
I do not subscribe to nor read The Smithsonian although I’m sure it is an excellent magazine. As for belonging in a convent . . . my friends will get a good laugh out of that one.
Good to see you back!!
I understand that it sucks that so many peoples lives have been lost, but if you think about it, if we didn’t do anything now, we could be loosing millions of people later on. If Iraqi people start flying in to building everywhere..or I should say Terrorist, because not all Iraqi people want to kill us…but anyways, if the terrorist went off doing that everywhere, peopld could be dying in every state. You have to learn to prevent things from getting even worse. It’s sad to see that americans and inicent Iraqi people have died for this, but in the end, it’ll be better than if we didn’t do anything at all. thank you.
donerail, I know people will behave however they please. It’s quite obvious when you sit at an intersection watching six or seven people going through a red light. I don’t think that makes the world a better place though.
I think we should get out of Iraq-like totally.
SalB: Now you are degrading the driving habits of Bostonians. Where will this crisis ever stop? Donerail
Hello everyone,
Although, I haven’t read all the replies, I am basically telling my opinion on the issue of boycott of french products. I think that it is uncalled for. What France has done is nothing but trying to make USA understand that every nation must follow the mandate of the UNO and one should not be trigger happy. The basis for attacking Iraq was the alleged existence of WMDs, which have not been found. The war has cost Iraq many innocent lives and has disabled its emergency services. It has also cost USA billions of dollars, when its econonmy was already reeling and many of its soldiers are being killed in Iraq even today. This war has already increased the negative attitude of the arab people towards the USA. USA is desperately trying to convince other nations to send their troops to Iraq. USA has disregarded the existence and authority of the UNO. In such a situation, France has taken the right stand on the above issue and in response to the stand taken by France, if Americans boycott French products, then it does nothing, but just shows the narrow mindedness of the American people. I am not aware of the extent of boycott but, if it by most of the American people, then it just shows that Americans cannot take "no" for an answer. the issue of boycott of French products is uncalled for.
SalB: This is one of my last posts. I can see that you wore yourself out dancing around your position. I know how difficult it must have been trying to prop up that lost cause. Just one major point. The Forum Administrator didn’t "edit" sweird’s post, he or she deleted it. I accept your apology. Donerail
Sir,
Seriously, I really don’t think that the UN really wants to help out in Iraq. They had previously hinted about working there and wanting more responsibility, but they already ready chickened out. They ran off. They couldnt take it any more. It was too much for them. Theyre acting like little children that want a big responsibility and then run off. Just one bombing of their compound and they ran off.
You all that think Bush is a Coyboy. Well, I think that’s what it would take. Iraq needs tamed and the UN high society bureaucratic whimps can’t handel it.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
SalB: I don’t know if you are going to like this or not but it is relatively germane to our discussion. I was listening to the Howard Stern radio show on the way to work this morning (now don’t judge) and he was interviewing the author of a book. I can’t remember the name of the book or the author but the subject was "the stuff they taught us in school that was not true." Documented instances of appx 150 pages of falsehoods. Stern is currently battling the FCC over censorship. Donerail
bigindian,
"USA has disregarded the.. authority of the UNO (UN)"?
Authority? What authority? The UN has never had any jurisdiction. We do not need to go through them in order to declare war or one of these "half way-not really a war deals" which by the way I don’t think is exactly constitional
Anyway, the UN is not some type of word government. The UN itself says that it’s not and it will not interfere with the sovereignty of nations. The sovereighnty of a country also includes being able to declare war.
A nation is independent of any other world powers and is only answerable to God. No one else. The UN thinks they are playing God as if morals consist of however many countries agree on something. No one organization should have the power of controling the whole world. That’s just too much power for one organization.
The reason for the UN is so nations can come together and discuss issues in a convenient and comfortable atmosphere. It is not a government for if it was it would not be a very fair one for it ony have one delgate per nation anyway. They are supposed to be helping out opressed nations yet do they see Tibet as a sovereign country? Do they recognize Manchuria? (Remember, before WWII the league of nation condimed Japan for invading manchuria) Did they recognize the Kurds when they were being opressed by Sadam? Do they recognize any opressed nation?
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
Howard Stern . . . That says it all!
We nuns don’t listen to shock jocks!
A great deal of editing is simply removing. You remove what is not relevent to the subject at hand. There was an article on Netscape News today about fringe group web sites. I’m sure they honor freedom of speech there. Racism, terrorism, perversion, whatever you want to sell . . . ah, freedom.
BTW, if you’ll check the Talk thread, yesterday I suggested the book "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" by James W. Loewen. He goes through things that have been presented to generations of students as facts. Only they simply are not true. He does document this. It’s fascinating. That might be what Mr. Stern was discussing. (I uphold the FCC on Stern. He’s a good example of not using your freedom responsibly. These people are not about freedom, they are about shocking people to make money.)
Another book you might enjoy (also mentioned on the Talk thread) "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared Diamond. It goes way back in history and discusses why wars are fought. Nothing much has changed since the stone age.
I don’t feel censorship does much good in the case of the Howard Sterns of the world. My husband calls it the vulgarization of America and he’s right. Time weeds out the chaff. I just ignore it for the duration. If more people would ignore him, he’d go away. We feel that way about most of the current popular culture but we’re old fuddy duddies. We were fuddy duddies when we were young, but now we’re old.
At any rate, I’m glad you’re still here to set us all straight.
Hi im Matt, and im from Canada. I suppose it is quite prejudice (in my opinion) to boycott France. Americans have to remember what they had to give up in Normandy, Paris etc. Whole villages fell and i think that they should be respected for what they had to go through. There were millions of people who died, even more than the us. What more must you ask of them? i think that it should be greatly repsected that they do not want to get involved; dont you think so? So, no more ‘freedom fries’ or dissing the french. they are self governed individuals who dont want to get involved…Respect that and they will repsect you guys. Do not take any offence to this letter because it is what i think, not what the whole country thinks. Its just like France, it was a dicision of the officials, not of the public.
Which French philosopher was it who said, "I might not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it". Was it Voltaire? I forget which French philosophe said it, but never was a more true statement uttered. When you start choosing which form of "speech" can be published, read, prosecuted or otherwise made public, then you lose a fundamental right in America. You might not like certain forms of speech, but the person saying it has the RIGHT to say it. Who are YOU to judge what is "offensive"? In a free society, the individual is responsible for their own decisions in this matter. I don’t want somebody telling me what is "acceptable" and what is not. I always found political correctness to be nonsense. Therefore, don’t start preaching what is "racist, perversion, etc" and what is not.
I think that we should boycott anything french. Because in WW2 we helped them out after Hitlor took over we pushed out the Germans and then come time for America to Push out another Democ. person (AKA Saddam) they dont want to help because all of you french are Peace to the World and dont kill the trees kind of people. (In America AKA Tree hugers.) I cant belive that france even has a Military. You dont even use it. God Bless the USA!
LaVieilleBranche: It sounds like something that Voltaire would say. I saw his final resting place at The Pantheon. I think it was his that I saw, maybe it was Victor Hugo. Somehow I always thought it was an American. But our Founding Fathers did learn so much from LaFrance. SalB would give us all the freedom of speech that we need, provided that we "behaved" or "acted responsibly." If SalB and the Forum Administrator were our Congress, I am sure they would set up an appropriate Committee that would determine what the limits of our free speech and free press would be. And I think there might be some disincentives if we screwed up. Maybe if too much of our writings were censored -oops, i mean "edited" then maybe we would have to go somewhere to get re-educated. Maybe Cuba or China. They seem very well behaved.
SalB: You are amazing. That book and author WAS what Stern had on his program. Can you believe it. I picked up a piece of wisdom from a Shock Jock. I do hope no kids were tuned into it. I wonder why his programs are rated #1 in all the markets that he is in. I guess you won’t have to worry about him after the FCC gets him off our airwaves. Then we can all tune into the "good stuff." Maybe John Ashcroft singing Gospel hymns. I bought that book, Slow Road to Paris by John Chapman. Couldn’t get it at any of the libraries or amamzon. Found it at Altabris.com for $9.00. It is nice. Also picked up the Lonely Planet guide to the Southwest of France. It is really really great. I am glad no one censored them – it is about France and you know how difficult the French have been… I think your Liberal batteries need a little recharging. Donerail
Matt,
I understand that a lot of us Americans are being a bit prejudice against and French and I also understand that more of the French died trying to protect their country in WWI and WWII than we did. However since they had it done to them dont you think they would wake up and remember what happened when they fell asleep last time?
Also about the French Fries, I dont think that it should matter whether we call them French Fries or Freedom Fries, because France has no obligation to them. The fact is French Fries actually come from England, so this little dispute really doesn’t matter.
If Matt is right could we please hear from some Frenchmen who don’t agree with Chirac’s policy.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
It was indeed Voltaire and the correct quote is: "I may not agree with what you say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it."
Sorry it took me so long to get back to this. I was busy burning salacious novels.
Stern’s programs are rated #1 because vast numbers of people prefer wallowing in the mud. He is what my husband calls, the lowest common denominator. That’s why these pseudoreality shows are so popular.
I didn’t know Ashcroft could sing gospel hymns. It’s good he can do something well.
I would much prefer listening to him sing hymns than watching him tell lies on television. I guess it’s not really my choice though.
I still contend when a web site posts the rules and say to stay out unless you are willing to follow those rules, when you post, you agree to the rules and should not be upset when you are "edited" or "censored." This may be a forum "open to the public" but it is not owned by the public nor supported by government funds. The streets are open to the public but we all (or most of us) agree to abide by traffic rules and don’t (or shouldn’t) get upset when we get a ticket for breaking one of them.
I you want to publish your own web site or newspaper, feel free to say anything you want. I don’t have to read it.
Death is not an illusion, and we all are sinners every one … we all will pay the piper eventually, some sooner than others, but some won’t go to Hell. Look at Volaire, it was sooner than what the doctor told him .. Why be surprised .. He is where he should be, where ever that may be .. I am not there, so I have no clue.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whold world, and lose his own Soul, Mark 8:36
Living on earth is like school, learn now, and then graduate ..
Going to Heaven is like going on with life.
I would rather be in heaven some day, and what I do and say will follow me where ever I go … Soul
To Donerail and LaVieilleBranche,
You really have been my favorite in this website. I howver believe there is a problem to unlimited freedom of speech. So here is a tricky question for you. What if terrorist start publishing posts in which they say that they support 9/11 and try to convince people to start putting boms all around. What would you say?
Yours truly,
DrEska
Some Americans seem to be boycotting anything French and engaging in
french-bashing and insults. I for one don’t plan to boycott anything French. In fact I’m only going to buy more French products now that France is not supporting America’s road to empire in the UN or anywhere else. If I’m going to boycott anything at all it will be American products. I’m not going to support multi-national corporate
America. As for the war in Iraq; it was wrong, illegal and immoral.
America’s war in Iraq was and is a war about oil. Anyone who thinks differently is simply naive and stupid. Just to add one more thing-
Vive La France!!! The true nation of freedom and democracy.
DrEska: I am assuming the terrorist savages are doing that right now -but probably using some sort of code known only to themselves. Illegal activity is not a protected right. Remember the Pentagon papers? That is exactly the situation that we are talking about here. It is a tough issue. But once you start to "control" freedom of speech and press it becomes a very slippery slope. If you or any reader gets a chance, read the interview in the July issue of Playboy (I buy it only for the articles.) They interviewed Michael Moore and it was really a gripping interview. Say what you want about his antics and motives, but if you read the interview you will be amazed by how common sense his logic is. He proffered the opinion that Osama bin Laden and his 189 other savages have accomplished more to reduce our freedoms than any enemy in our history. He knew our Government would react by taking more of our freedoms away. All in the name of fighting terrorism. Playboy asked him the same question you asked me. I liked Moore’s response to Playboy: "Give the Israeli’s (very discretely) a few billion dollars and tell them to get rid of those 190 people." The Israeli’s got every one of the Olympic killers, they did the raid on Antibbe, they got Adolph Eichmann, and lately that Hamas honcho. Thats the way you get rid of terrorists and not by having an 80 year old woman in a wheelchair take off her shoes at an airport. One method is just so much more effective than the other. We also have to work on our policies such that people aren’t lining up to embrace a bold faced killer like ObL. It is political season again here in the USA and we will be asked the inevitable question: Are we safer now than we were 10 years ago? Are we more free? Are we more well off? It will be interesting to see how the questions are answered. I love your country by the way. You don’t have the same level of freedoms that we do, but you do have a national healthcare system. Donerail
Actually franco-American you are wrong. French fries actually did originate in France in the 1700s (later imported to England-then to the USA. As for calling them freedom-fries. In America’s case it would be more appropriate to call them fascist-fries rather than freedom-fries. As for any Frenchmen not supporting Chirac’s policy-
I would be surprised if many French did because the war was wrong and illegal. War for oil by an American Empire for multi-national corporations is precisely the reason why the war should not be supported by France or any other civilized nation.
DrEska: I forgot to ask a question in return and I don’t mean to be trite or disrespectful to you or anyone else with the question that I about to ask. Lets assume the terrorists do use 9/11 as some sort of a recruiting mechanism on the net. Would you trade the lives of 3,000 innocent people in return for freedoms of speech, press, and religion? Donerail
What is the argument about now?
What do the French want the U.S. to do? Do they want more UN help. (other wise known as unhelp thus unhelpful) Well, the UN already ran off after the last bombing.
I really don’t think that you want us to leave after all we’ve already accomplished. (The Suni triangle is not even in Baghdad any more. It is being pushed to the north east.)
Oil? Do you want some of the oil? Well, it’s not even ours. We are letting the Iraqis handel their own oil.
Do you feel a little uneasy about our President wearing a millitary uniform? Does that remind you too much of Napoleon?
Really what is it that the French want us to do now?
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
DrEska: My attention span should be longer. There are recognized curbs to our freedoms. The obvious being you can’t scream "fire" in a crowded theatre and you can’t steal patents/copywrites. But those curbs are very very very few and for the obvious reasons set out in case law. Donerail
P.S. Seriously, It may be we are doing something wrong, but how are we supposed to know what we are doing wrong unless you tell us?
SalB: Times are changing. Your arguments aren’t quite up to date. If you are a liberal, I must be 5000 miles to the left of Karl Marx. Your analogy about agreeing to traffic rules is convoluted at best. We don’t "agree" to abide by them. We are OBLIGATED to abide by them. We don’t have freedom of choice when it comes to abiding by the law. I am sorry you don’t like Howard Stern. I think the things that he does are outrageous. I don’t know if it says something about me and millions of others (the majority in the covered markets) but I actually laugh out loud at a lot of his stuff. When he gets into stuff that I don’t like, I censor it myself and tune into another channe. My wife will not drive in the car with me if I have him on. She also would have him banned. With regard to websites and various rules let me enlighten you a little. Any of the "rules" and all behavior conducted on here is subject to the rule of law of the residence of the people involved if there was some sort of an "incident" that had to be litigated. (There isn’t freedom of press in the UK by the way.) If france.com was a US citizen or Corporation and I depended on this site for my livelyhood, and if I was discriminated against or otherwise could prove abuse, I could sue them for the harm created. In this hypothetical, if sweird was able to get information to my competitors and such information was denied to me, I bet I would prevail in US Courts to the tune of treble damages. In a somewhat less obvious vein, if everyone in town gets away with traveling at 56 mph in a 55 zone – and I become the unfortunate example of the lawbreaker – or not following the rules as you would put it – I bet I would win a reversal of my conviction. By the way, is wallowing in the mud in any way related to mud wrestling? If so, it may be time to ask hubby how he knew what he knew. Donerail
Well said Amero Franc!
"He’s a good example of not using your freedom responsibly. These people are not about freedom, they are about shocking people to make money.)" (Howard Stern)
Hey, guess what… it is a radio show… if you don’t like it or dissagree with it TURN THE DIAL.
Are you kidding? Freedom of speach is freedom of speach. Period. Whether you agree with it or not. It is freedom of speach.
I hear a lot of things I don’t like or dissagree with but that doesn’t meant that they need to shut up.
Find a station that makes you feel good if that is what you need in your day.
If Howard Stern is making a ton of money speaking his mind more power to him, that is the American way! I could only wish I got paid to speak my mind, the ulitmate job. And Frankly, I wouldn’t care either if people agreed with me or not.
I listen to Howard Stern and enjoy his morning show. Some of what is said makes me mad and some of what is said makes me laugh and some of it I don’t care either way but it is the AMERICAN FREEDOM to say what you want and I wouldn’t trade that for anything.
Magpie,
In you last message you mentioned two words in the same sentance that do not go together; war and illegal.
In order for something to be illegal there need’s to be law.
In order to inforce law one side needs to have control
In war two groups are fighting for control so nether of them really can inforce law unless one looses.
That also includes spectators commenting about the war.
Really as far as earthly law there is nothing illegal about two nations fighting each other. As far as earthly law is conserned war between nations is non-legal. (or as they say alegal)
Well, gang, I just thought I’d check in on the ”BOYCOTT REDUX” forum. About the boycott – it is real. It is having a devastating effect on the French economy. The official unemployment rate is 11%, and unofficially it is probably double that. I see alot of people in cafes during the day, nursing a single coffee or a beer all afternoon. The majority are, as always, women. The weak dollar adds to the damage, as does the immigration situation.
As is usually the case, in some ways the French have sown the seeds of their own destruction by errant military adventures. Algeria is a good example: I happen to think the French owe some sort of reparation to the people of Algeria, and apparently this has taken the form of a liberal immigration policy. The problem for France is that, as in other countries, the Muslim peoples, and particularly the Arabs, tend to remain insulary, and do not assimilate like the Polish, Italians, Austrians, et al. In the US, the same is the case, but the US is so big that they can ”get away with it”. Hell – the Sikhs have their own damn city (Yuba City, California)! The Hmong are gradualy taking over Fresno… There are communities all over the country who, as a matter of preference, hang with their own kind. But they also celebrate the 4th of July! One shows respect for one’s hosts by adopting or adapting to their customs and traditions. In France, it seems that this respect is, broadly speaking, not followed by the North African immigrants. The cultural gap widens instead of narrowing, and mutual resentment ensues. Thus, the boycott by the stupid half of America is but one of the difficulties facing the Republique these days.
O/T – I visited the Acropolis last week. Walking down to the Agora, I saw, on the wall of a residence in the neighborhood, a stenciled graffiti. It featured the silhouette of a torture victim, hooded, with wires attached to his fingers (you know the one). Underneath, the words ”Fat Stupid Americans” I said to my girlfriend (a Berber, btw),”What can I say”? I felt like throwing up…
What the French and the civilized world wants you to do is to stop playing at God, stop policing the world (America is in no moral
position to do so anyway), stop trying to globalize/Americanize
the world and lastly stop your drive for an American world Empire,
after all we all know what eventually happens to all empires.
betyblue: We’ve haven’t agreed too often on these forums, but I share your view on this 100%. Donerail
luther: Thank you for that information. I am trying my best to offset some of the boycott. I wish I had more money to do so. Donerail
I’m really amazed at your limited ability to think rationally.
First of all your comment, "In order for something to be illegal there needs to be a law." Well actually there are UN sanctioned laws
and American laws that explicity made the U.S. invasion of Iraq illegal because these laws were broken. The fact that
the U.S. invaded Iraq anyway doesn’t make the war legal or justified.
Also the fact that the U.S. thinks of the UN as being a inconvenient
convenience doesn’t justify the war. Of course you would simply reply,
well war is just a matter of reality in this world. Not in a civilized world. In a civilized world nations don’t invade other nations without reason, but then again I made the mistake of assuming that the US is civilized.
"In order to inforce laws one side needs to be in control"
You are right on the issue of being in control." Something that the U.N. and US govt. institutions were not in this case, for if they were they would have been able to inforce the laws and stop the US from invading Iraq. That
fact however does not legitimize the war and does not make the war legal.
Also your other comment, "In war 2 groups are fighting for control, so neither of them can really inforce law unless 1 loses." What you are discribing is the law of the Jungle. I think humanity has evolved
well past this stage of primitive behaviour, but unfortunately it seems the US of A has not. You seem to have a hard time distinguishing between international laws governing the behaviour of nations before the fact (before a war) and the laws governing the behaviour of a nation after a war (after the fact) when the winning side inforces its laws upon the losing side of a conflict (Law of the Jungle,) The law of the Jungle however does not make the illegality of the war illegitimate.
As for your last comment, "As far as earthly law goes there is nothing illegal about 2 nations fighting each other." According to international law 2 nations fighting each other, where 1 of these nations is not in any immediate danger is illegal. You really need to examine and read some legal articles concerning international laws as pertaining to war. Something which I can see in reading your comments you have not done. The notion that war is a matter of fact doesn’t justify or make the US invasion of Iraq legal. You seem to be living in a fantasy world where the only law governing war is "Might Means Right." I could also see that many Americans are also living in this fantasy world.
Luther your opinion, or perception is totally wrong. The french government itself recognized that it was a big mistake to create reserves (the only word that could apply here) where they parked all the migrants from Africa. This stopped (or at least heavily delayed) any possible integration. This, however, changed a lot in th elast few years as the french government changed its policies and started, without naming it as such, a positive discrimination program. You see more and more North African in movies, politics, executive positions everywhere. The fact that Zinedine Zidane and other African descent players won a world cup and european cups changed the landscape in France.
The french as well as the Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and Mediterranean in general sip their expresso for an hour and it has been the case long before 9/11. Americans are beer drinkers and gulp their drinks whatever it is. I am always disgusted when I order wine that the waiter/waitress fills it up. Aglass of wine has to be 1/3 full to allow smelling and turning it in the glass. Please don’t mix cultural differences and boycott. It is almost impossible today to boycott a particular country because of the globalization. The economy is slow everywhere. I was in New York last week and I never saw so many beggers on the streets. Perception? weak dollar? bad economy? benefits cuts? I don’t know. London England is in a deplorable state, buildings are not restaured and some looking really bad. England is not boycotted I believe. I am really looking forward to the elections. If Kerry wins we will have a chance for a renewed democracy, if Bush wins the terrorists will be celebrating as he is doing exactly what they want him to do. Giving the impression that the West is at war with Islam. I was reading an article by a former CIA member saying that the US are not only losing the battle against terrorism but that they are, thanks to Bush, expanding their influence at a global level, even in countries thet were free of it before. As to those who say that freedom of speech is American, I recommend a small test, choose a US city, then a bar, then sit in that bar and start criticing the war and Bush. If you are lucky, you will find yourself surrounded by people who agree, if unlucky you will risk to be attacked and hurt. There was a special article on the Times website on the number of Americans (not foreigners) who got injured, sometimes serioulsy, for expressing their antiwar opinion.
And Donerail, please don’t get upset I am teasing you: your "this is my last post" makes me think of those artists who claim each time that it is their last show to increase their audience. hahahahaha Happy to have you around.
Just becaue you dissagree with someone doesn’t mean that they "have a limited ability to think rationally". Attacking someone’s character doesn’t make for a healthy mature exchange of beliefs and ideas.
Your point will be more credible if you make it without slamming someone elses perspective.
For the record, I am basing my opinion of Howard Stern on what I have read about him. I’ve never listened to him because I don’t normally listen to the radio. When I do, it’s only to classical music and if I can’t find a station, I turn it off. Love that dial . . .
Secondly, this entire brouhaha over censorship/editing is ridiculous and a madeup effort to get attention. France.com has been editing posts for all sorts of reasons ever since I started posting here. Why did this particular "delete" make everyone more upset than previous ones?
Mail a letter to the editor of any mainstream newspaper in the nation or any mainstream magazine in the nation and you will find yourself edited . . . or even not published. The editor determines the newsworthiness of the content and is responsible to his publisher/readers for the readability of the content. Hence, choices are made.
Hate crimes are a big problem in LA right now and hate speech incites hate crimes so why contribute to the problem? I’ll defend anyone’s right to say what he believes, but I will also defend any private entity’s right to control the manner in which it is said on their property, intellectual or physical. In other words, you can say what you believe but you need to say it in a civil manner not inciting violence, humiliation or hate.
Dr. Eska has an excellent point about saying what you want in many bars in this country . . . restaurants, private homes, buses, sidewalks, etc. When the majority is seriously proBush, you will be met with hushed silence at best and escorted out the door or worse. You will be silenced. Anyone been to Fresno, CA lately? I could name a few other places from Ohio to California where I am not comfortable discussing my views about several things (including, apparently, Boston).
. . . and I reiterate, this is not a PUBLIC forum. It is a private forum with private rules that is open to the public for participation by individuals who agree to those rules. Believe me, if someone were a guest in our house and started spouting profanity and racism, I would escort him (or her) to the door and tell them not to return until they could behave in a manner appropriate to my household. It’s our house; they’re our rules. When you are a guest, as we all are here, it behooves you to follow the house rules.
You don’t want total freedom; you want anarchy. Freedom is not license.
. . . and this is my last comment on the matter. LOL
Magpie,
You are right. The picture I described was the "Law of the Jungle", however, I was only describing the law of nature. I was not saying weather the earthly law was right or wrong. In fact a lot of times laws are wrong.
Notice I didn’t just say law. I said earthly law. The way we determine right or wrong is not by earthly law, which is made by men who can make mistakes and turn evil. Right and wrong or legitimacy and illegitimacy is determined by Devine law. I know how unpopular this concept is among this secular world, but this is a truth that has not been replaced.
I believe I should have started back a step in my previous comment. Laws are formed by Governments so if there are international laws there is an international Government. What the UN has decreed has now been deemed as morality as apposed to real morals. The UN is not a World Government for if this was the Case, there are really no nations. There would be just counties under the sovereignty of the UN.
This dream is a fatal dream for a word nation is still ruled by mere men. Men who have just the same political pressures if not more, just the same amount of corruption if not more and just the same tendency for evil if not more. If they make a mistake, where’s the second chance? No, ruling the whole world is too much power for one government.
Again, I fully understand that the UN does decree things that they call law. My question is, were did they get their sovereignty. Did they inherit some royal line? Did the people of the world vote on them?
I realize that many nations in the past have clamed divine law in order to impose their un-rightful will on other people. The same thing happens with these so called "UN resolutions." People seem to have different interpretations and misuse them. Yes,United Nations are not only trying to be an empire. They are trying to be "the office of god."
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
As a law-educated Frenchman, I found this debate on free speech and censorship interesting. Ive studied American law, and found the whole 1st amendment thing pretty cool. It makes freedom of speech the general rule, and limitations to it are very scarce. The Supreme Court sees to it.
Believe me, or not, but the french legal system is very different in that matter. Limitations to free speech are much more common. Tell anything in public that does not please someone, and itll very often land you in court. The last Brigitte Bardot case is a perfect example : whether she was right or not with what she wrote, the court ruled she could not express it publicly, because, ooh ooh, it could harm someone.
As for what would happen in a redneck bar if you opened your liberal mouth, Id say this kind of thing would happen anywhere in the world, depending on the bar and its patrons. I know some American students in France who were assaulted by a gang of young Arabs on the street, just because they were talking in English. And this was not even in a bad neighbourhood.
Each time I come to the US, Im amazed by those political bumper stickers, like « Shrub in 04 ». Do that in France, with any political figure, and I guarantee the keying of your car.
CRC
P.S. You’re right French fries didn’t come from England. However, experts disagree on the origan. There is a split between France and Belguim. Most think Belguim, but I’m willing to give France the benefit of the doubt. Besides, they both speak French.
crc95 I am not saying freedom of speech is better in other areas of the world, I am just saying that it is not better in the US. I have to admit it was a lot better in the US in the 80s. But things changed, especially since bush got into power. As for the American being assaulted in France by young arabs, I can tell you many other cases where american and arabs in France are friends. It is this kind of example that brings misunderstanding. Generalization is one of the worst poisons for the brain. Islam is not behind the terror we see today. The terror is provoked by uneducated people calling themselves Muslims and using religion to their own interests. Christianity under inquisistion did horrible things. Today, Christians are more educated on average than Muslims. The problem is that the American governments, especially the bush type, have been protecting and supporting, around the world, governments who keep a tight control on their population and stop them from becoming educated and knowledgeable. CNN was showing yesterday footage where, we see, Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein and assuring him of the american people’s support. The Taliban, who stopped women from going to scool were a creation from the late Reagan. There is a saying that we all know: "What goes around, comes around". I would like to add another one I saw posted on a small church in Pennsylvania that said: "Love your ennemies like yourself. After all, you created them."
Fredom of speech is not freedom of speech if you let people express ideas that could lead to stop minorities (racial, sexual or others) to express themselves. Hatred does just that.
It’s clear that France has never been a friend – I’ve been there a few times and have always been treated with hostility and snobbiness. Until now, it has been a minor annoyance. But now it is a huge insult that the French (and Germans and Russians) expect American tax money to be awarded to their companies in Iraq. This is my money that I earned and gave to my government. Now they whine that they want my money after they made it ridiculously clear that we shouldn’t be in Iraq. You have got to be joking. The gall (or is it Gualle?).I’ll not ever go there again, spend a penny on anything from those companies (except BMW… hard to resist) or in anyway support their economies given their intentional damage to ours.
I will fight until death for your right to stand corrected! The official rate of unemployment in France is above 9.8%. The actual % is much higher. The boycott, fueled by Murkan propaganda, has severely injured the French economy – I am walking every day by the carcasses of once-cool little enterprises gone bust in the last few years. Also, there is a huge immigrant population – from all over the globe, really. Many integrate successfully. Generally speaking, the Muslim immigrant population does not. Saying ”things are tough all over” may be true, but it is not too enlightening. The Brits have similar problems to the French – that just makes my point – global problems, like water rights, land use issues, and the movements of large populations all have localized effects: France faces all this and also must cope with the loss of an important source of income. Rather than use the ”long beer” illustration, I might describe the large groups of guys 20-60 yrs. old hanging on the steps of rue Pouteau, or students who can’t find a summer job, or the technicians who are in school or the brilliant travel agents and tour guides and docents who spend their days in community centers on borrowed computers trying to make some kind of life in the absence of a decent job. The ‘hood can only support so many kebab joints…if the Yanks ain’t coming.
Ferme ta Bush. Je Reagan en douce quand j’entends ces conneries. Nixon mère. Swarz the nigger a ete elu en Calife Horny ou se trouve Los Angeles de Inferno. Quant a nous, on a mis Tapis à l’Elysee pour ne pas entendre Georges Marchais, qui aurrait pu se faire descendre d’une balle à blanc ou de deux Balladur. Chirac de l’argent a chaque fois que je sors. Tu Paris? J’ai un ami, Irak a chaque fois qu’il sort le Bag Dad. Il faut dire que quand on a le Cuba, cela castro. Les Etals Unis se cendent bien en ce moment. Quand au transexuel, quand Israel, cela sera trop tard. On sera bien heureux de trouver un Rabbin des bois pour sauver les pauvres. Imam, Imam pas. Je m’en fiche. Jesus Chris et la Caravan passe. Il a cru s’y fier et il la croix maintenant. Des clous! Indien vaut mieux que deux tulauras. Pendant ce temps la, nous Japons pour rien. Il faut garder la chine basse et boire des boissons edul Korees. Je pourrais continuer comme ça pendant des pages et des pages juste pour montrer que le monde est con. Une chose toutefois. La majorité du monde est d’accord. Bush est un Hors la loi (loi internationale qui régit le comportement des nations). Et il s’est mis à dos 1.8 milliards de musulmans. La population musulmane grosso modo doubles tous les 20 ans. Bravo Bush tu as crée un sacré challenge pour les jeunes américans qui ne sont meme pas encore nés. Mais tu t’en fous tu seras mort.
Joyeus Noel et Bonne Année.
DrEska: I have to admit that I am learning a lot from luther and crc95. They have a very close familiarity with the French countryside and culture. Not that you don’t. I guess what we are all saying to some degree, economics is what drives a lot of policy and viewpoints. If a suggestion is made to use tax dollars to help people that need help (usually immagrints) the Republicans go ballistic. America has vast resources and amazing creativity. We squander so much of it and cause much concern to other nations when our economy starts to flutter. That is usually the case when Republicans have been at the helm for a while. Canada usually suffers first as a result of our inadequate and inconsistent economic and foreign policy. These were nice posts by all. I wish gaston would "weigh in" on these issues.
SalB: I have to refer you to betyblue and just about everyone’s comments on here relative to free speech. We all know whoever has the power can do just about anything they want – for a while anyway. Governments can repress their people until the people throw off the yoke of oppression. France.com or any other forum website can censor (or "edit" as you continue to say) members posts until the members get tired of it and then "goodbye website." If you really believe this is a "private" forum, I offer you my profound sympathy. I am glad, however, your commentary has come to a close on the issue. You were really starting to rant in that last post. Also, it is probably a good suggestion that you don’t tune into Howard Stern. I don’t know you, but something tells me if you have a problem with the behaviour on here, you would probably have a coronary if you tuned into to Stern. If per chance you ever become FCC Commissioner, please don’t censor him. Not until all of his listeners "grow up" anyway. I am in my late 50′s and I guess I haven’t grown up yet. I have learned one good thing from luther and crc95, however, I must be careful with my "free speech" when I am not in the USA. I have to find one of those "shrub in 04" bumperstickers for my boss. Donerail
What? Wrong forum.
Dear Luther,
I don’t know where you live, what you read, nor what kind of mushrooms you eat, but that boycott thing had NO effect of the French economy whatsoever. I can’t take of ANY french entrepreneur that will feel sorry about that stupid boycott, because there AREN’T ANY. Maybe cheeses and wines, but if you know anything about economics you’ll know that a few thousand bottles less sold in a year, and even a million ones, will NOT affect the French agro business.
If you really believe that there’s unemployment in France because that stupid boycoot worked, then I don’t know what’s wrong with you, maybe you’ve been watching FAUX NEWS a little too much ?
That said, that stupid boycott could have had consequences if it had been directed to REAL French assets. But that didn’t happened, mainly because stupid ignorant uneducated rednecks who fell for that stupid boycott simply didn’t know what RELEVANT French asset to boycott. They don’t know that such brands as Motel 6 or Nissan belong to French companies. If everybody in the US had stopped staying in Motel 6, or buying Nissans, they YES, that stupid boycott would have mean danger to some French companies. But it didn’t happened.
I think the reason it didn’t happened is because that stupid boycott was driven by populist medias, that tend fly with the wind. They quickly forgot about it and then jumped to something else. Like the new Iraq quagmire, Bush’s lies exposed, Lynndie England’s parties, etc.
CRC
Hey betyblue!
Fancy seeing you here
Glad to see you again!
I think it’s more of a case of bad brains, if you ask me.
G.
Luther,
You say: The official rate of unemployment in France is above 9.8%. The actual % is much higher. It has been around that since the 80s
You say: I am walking every day by the carcasses of once-cool little enterprises gone bust in the last few years. I see the same in London and New York
You say: there is a huge immigrant population – from all over the globe, really. Many integrate successfully. Generally speaking, the Muslim immigrant population does not. I see the same in New York
Finally you say, to contradict yourself lo "Saying ”things are tough all over” may be true, but it is not too enlightening. The Brits have similar problems to the French – that just makes my point – global problems, like water rights, land use issues, and the movements of large populations all have localized effects"
You say: "I might describe the large groups of guys 20-60 yrs. old hanging on the steps of rue Pouteau, or students who can’t find a summer job, or the technicians who are in school or the brilliant travel agents and tour guides and docents who spend their days in community centers on borrowed computers trying to make some kind of life in the absence of a decent job." The youth and those over 40s have always been the most hit by emplyment problems. So what is your point. You are describing everlasting problems of France. What is the relation to the boycott?????
The whole Western World is falling. Let’s take it sereinly lol
donerail, LOL means "Laughing Out Loud." I was being sarcastic and have no intention of giving up on your education . . . (also a paraphrase of one of your previous posts).
Besides if you can have at least four "last" posts, surely I’m allowed two!
Hi there France.com
The post under my name has been modified and not by me. How can you explain that? Interestingly the things deleted were nothing important. Are you trying to make us doubt of our own mind? In my case, just to let you know, I keep copy in word of all my postings.
CRC I know that Motel 6 and Nissan are owned by French companies
(well, more like merged with) and I am a redneck. Thats the problem
with sterotypes, we don’t all fit neatly into them, I mean do you
stink and wear a beret?
I do agree, the boycott was just a media creation,it was never serious. It started, I believe, because the media can get away
with picking on the French. Due to political correctness and
european heritage, the French are the only ones left to offend
without getting into trouble. There just are not enough Americans
of French descent to complain.Because, I guess, the French don’t leave. But, in a way, the French are happy, at least the boycott
gets them in U.S. newspapers. I know the French really hate to be ignored.
These are neat posts. Sort of like Democrat versus Republican or Conservative versus Liberal in the USA. But with a French twist. Personally, I don’t believe boycotts work too well and with today’s global markets it is difficult to manage. At that is assumming the country being boycotted is a dire enemy. I haven’t noticed the price of French products going down.
SayB: Your apology was very gracious and I accept it. Donerail
Well, this is one French-American who buys French whenever she can..I just yesterday got a carafe to store wine in my fridge and I got a Luminarc carafe for $6.99, made in France. I didn’t even bother to look at the others. Made in France is good enough for me and it helps the French
There are PLENTY of French-Americans living in the USA. Many are down in Louisiana. I’ve run into many of them right here in NJ. WE don’t like Bush’s past comments against the French, and we vote, too…remember that…and Kerry speaks French ..
I did not apologize but I accept your acceptance. Time to move on.
We have a large French community in San Francisco and everyone knows that. What many people don’t realize is there is a large French community in a tiny place called Lone Pine, California. There is a water bottling company there and when they started it up, they brought in a lot of French people to advise and run the place. It’s funny because they have GREAT restaurants in the area in these teeny towns. You can also sit in the restaurant munching away and someone will sit beside you and start a conversation in French. It’s fun . . . and at the base of Mt. Whitney, it is absolutely beautiful too.
SalB" Of course you apologized. Why would you not? Donerail
No need . . .
Dr Eska,
When posts are modified either by the original poster or the forums administrator, a line appears at the bottom of the message saying "Message edited by so and so on (date ant time)".
I really don’t know what to say with regards to your post because we, for sure, did not do anything to it. I think you may have posted in this form originally.
When we edit a post, that shows up and we do not hide it. When we feel it is necessary to delete posts we offer an explanation of the reason for the deletion. We do not try to play with your minds. Enough people on the forums do that
At any rate enjoy the forums!
DrEska: We have to be careful. Between the Forum Administrator and SalB, LaVieilleBranche and others, we could be sent off to the gulag for behaviour modification training. Oops! as I recall you were in favor of the censorship, oops "editing." Donerail
Donerail I am for a little censure I have to admit but I love reading you whatever you have to say. Keep that in mind. If you leave others will too. Even Salb as he/she love to argue with you. And I love reading those arguments. As for MaVieilleBranche who was bragging to be on vacation for 2 months I have been since April 1st. University priviledges. LaVieilleBranche what are yor favorite wines? My Italian favorite is Barolo and My French one is Chateau Latour 1992, 95 or 98. T stay at reasonable prices of course
DrEska: I am trying to emulate one of my college roommates. He was a Philosophy major. I asked him, "Danny, what are you going to do with that Major once you graduate?" Danny replied, "I am going to philosophise." I am actually learning too much from SalB to leave. But it is a chore, believe me. I wonder how those French philosophers (or any philosopher) earned a living? Donerail
Some societies valued philosophers.
Odd story: Many years ago I was teaching in a very exclusive private school and was working early one morning when the janitor came in to clean. It became apparent that he was very intelligent so I asked him about his education. He had a Ph.D. in philosophy from Duke University, an excellent school. I asked him why he was a janitor with such an education and he replied that he preferred being a janitor because it gave him time to think. BTW, he was also an excellent janitor!
So . . . that’s how he earned his living.
SalB: That is a good story. It also dawns on me why teaching is such a noble profession. It is somewhat akin to being a Philosopher. Dr. Timothy Leary was probably our last good philosopher and he had a lot of help. Donerail
HAPPY CANADA DAY TO EVERYBODY. FREEDOM OF SPEECH STILL EXISTS IN CANADA.
I found this interesting quote that applies perfectly today:
The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small lie
From no other than Adolph Hitler
It sounds as if George Bush 2 has been studying Hitler’s philosophy…
LaVieilleBranche: I doubt the Chimp is capable of studying. Donerail
donerail: I’m sure there are some things he can study. Such as things he’d be interested in….what that is, well…I’m not quite sure
Dr eska who said "Whoever has experienced war at the front will want
to refrain from all avoidable bloodshed"? Maybe Jacques Chirac, why no, it was your old buddy Adolf Hitler. Sounds like Jacques has also
been studying up on the ways of Hitler. Strange how a man so devious
could have said something like that don’t you think?
Seems pretty obvious to me that anyone who unfortunately experienced war should be bluntly and by nature against it. That is, if he’s sane enough.
CRC
crc95: It is unfortunate the genesis of the quote, but since my Army days from 1967-1969 I firmly subscribe to the notion. Donerail
Hi to all,
Is this forum dead or is everybody in vacations? Hope you are all doing well
DrEska
Dr Eska: It has been pretty quiet. Donerail
i personally boycott anything french and plan to keep doing it long term .
the culligan man game in to show me a filter and i was considering it untill he told me it was owned by a french company. and the deal was over.
I don’t see the rift being bridged anytime soon. Most of the people I know will no longer buy products produced in France, or products from companies owned by the French.
Our local TJMaxx and More store has sorted and labled all their household goods (china, crystal, pot & pans, lines etc.) by country of origin. When I asked why the change, I was told customers were pulling off price tags to find the "made in" lables! The French section keeps getting smaller.
"Friends" cannot continue to insult each other’s political leaders, culture and citizens and expect to remain friends. The insult "ugly American" comes to mind. Why would we want to support a nation that thinks of us that way?
DrEska: Unfortunately I have not been to Canada in a number of years. I used to go to "The Ex" each September in Toronto as well as do a canoeing trip at Algonquin PP each Fall. It is such a beautiful country and the Canadians are such nice (although somewhat paranoid and anti-Bruin) people. Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Calgary, and Vancouver are such nice cities. I can’t figure out why baseball doesn’t thrive there. Just a few years ago you couldn’t get tickets to a Blue Jay game. Now you can and it looks like the Expos are "going south." I have the Cabot Trail in Novie on my list of rides for the Harley. I am sure the Nova Scotians are looking forward to that. Donerail
donerail: You need to visit Quebec City…It’s La France without the airplane…one day drive and you’re enjoying that fabulous French cuisine, language and wine!
Montreal is nice, but it doesn’t compare to Quebec City in the off season, without all those tourists.
Hi,
New here and just want to know when the next idiotic restaurant in Someplace Georgia will be dumping out their French wine so I can bring a glass….That plus I was glad to read that someone else remembers our revolutionary history: The French, our only allies, the British our enemies who hired mercenary Germans to help them. Finally, before you begin your NEOCON boycott, be prepared to do without a huge number of products. Shall we begin with the Nissan or Infiniti you love to drive???? And finally, perhaps what we hate most about another is what we see that reminds us of ourselves….Arrogance, empire, disdain for others…sounds like Bush/Cheney to me.
Bill in the tundra
LaVieilleBranche: Give me some recommendations on Quebec City. I may be taking the Harley up there in late August. Donerail
donerail: will do…I’ll email you Quebec City info…this forum isn’t the place to post that
Nice to meet you too, Gaston.
If you would kindly go back and read my original post again, you will notice I did not say I personally am boycotting French products. I try to buy American made products when I can and the only country I try extremely hard to avoid purchasing products from is China.
However, I know many, many people who are boycotting French products.
And yes, I can make a difference between your current governmental administration and your citizens. But tell me this, you do have elections over there don’t you? Which means Chirac was elected, right? Sometimes you pay the price for electing people who cause your national image to fall.
One on one, French and Amerian people can probably get along just fine, as we have for 200+ years. But there is a certain section of the populous who will voice their opinion with their dollars. That means choosing not to buy French, German, Canadian, etc. products at times.
Hi to all
Some interesting statistics on Tourism
COUNTRY ARRIVALS (millions) PERCENTAGE CHANGE ON 2002
1. France 75.0 minus 2.6
2. Spain 52.3 + 0.3
3. USA 40.4 minus 3.6
4. Italy 39.6 minus 0.5
5. China 33.0 minus 10.3
6. UK 24.8 + 2.6
7. Austria 19.1 + 2.6
8. Mexico 18.7 minus 4.9
9. Germany 18.4 + 2.4
10. Canada 17.5 minus 12.7
Boycott working? I don’t think so
DrEska: Neat stats. I am surprised about Austria. France seems to be doing well. You homeland of Canada seems to be hurting. Donerail
Here is an article from the Washington Post showing the corruptness of the US government in its dealings with Iraqui oil money:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37822-2004Aug3.html?referrer=emailarticle
Would I be suprised about this? not at all…this article just shows the world how corrupt the USA is when personal interests are at stake…
if this link goes dead, let me know and I will email you the full article. I had emailed myself a full copy.
Gaston,
I knew you would find that statement ironic! LOL
LVB: So tell us, did you get into the Convention or are you trying to scrape up bail money?
Donerail
Brat,
Then I fell for it! Touché!!!
G
LVB: On the assumption that you are in Quebec City and not locked up somewhere, take the long way home via New Hampshire. The State Liquor Stores are having a 20% off sale on ONLY French wines. NH State Liquor outlets already have the lowest $ on the East Coast. The sale goes on all thru September. Donerail
For the past few years I have celebrated New Year’s in Paris, and it was a fantastic experience. Last year, though there were many (mostly young) men selling fireworks–firecrackers, M-80′s, etc. People purchased them and were blatently throwing them into the crowd. This was very dangerous and no one enjoyed it except, of course, those doing the throwing. Several people were hurt and most were afraid to even be there. All the while the police huddled near their office at the Eiffel Tower, doing absolutely nothing.
Did anyone else experience this? Is anything being done to end this sort of mini-terrorism? Paris is much too lovely a city to have its celebrations ruined this way. And I spend way too much money there to have to be in fear that I will be hurt by some idiot flinging firecrackers into a crowd. I have attempted to contact the Police dept. in Paris but have received no response–surprise!!
Maybe it is time to look elsewhere for a good time
donerail: as much as I would LOVE to be out there protesting, I cannot. My job contract forced me to sign a loyalty oath "upholding the USA CONstitution" (French pun intended) and having "good morals." In addition to being fingerprinted with a digital scanner and checked by the FBI, I had to get a letter of good conduct from the police. If I get arrested for ANYTHING, even if I’m AQUITTED, I automatically lose my job. Even if it’s just a little drunk driving offense, I would lose my job IMMEDIATELY. Therefore, I cannot protest anything. Welcome to public school. Welcome to the USA, abandon your rights, all ye who enter here.
Because of intense security everywhere, even in the NYC suburbs (where I live), I’m not really going out anywhere, except to teach a few piano lessons as a summer job. I’m waiting for this convention mess to end so I can go out to a nice French resto in NYC and celebrate my new job.
Thank you for the info on French wines. If i do go up there for a few days, I’ll certainly go by way of NH and re-stock my wine cellar
I am disgusted with those Americans who spout off pithy and snyde remarks about a culture and country they know nothing about! It is egomaniacal and they should be ashamed. I *love* how people say, "Well, we helped the French in WWII, why don’t they help us now?" Do they not have an opinion? I am sure that the French government recognizes the huge Arab/Muslim population within the "Ilse de France" and does not wish to create a civil war of terrorism. They are looking out for their own interests- AS IS THE USA. I am also sure that’s not the only reason not to send their men and boys to die. They happen to be quite peaceful and diplomatic.
I am American, I support the Iraqi War, but I have a deep respect for the French people and their beautiful culture. To say that the French are arrogant is proof of American’s lack of introspection. Americans are the ones who go to a foreign country and demand they speak English! Amercians are the ones who impose their own ethos onto the rest of the industrialized world. The French make a great effort to preserve their language and culture and should not be bashed for not bowing to *The Almighty Power That Is The United States*.
I have had encounters with many young French people who have great things to say about Les Etats-Unis. They are very saddened by political situations which fuel hatred and therefore block understanding.
When I go to France next year to teach English, I hope I come back with a whole tankfull of remarks for all those who feel the French have wronged this country.
(Just had to get a few items off my chest.)
LVB, Aren’t you glad the world is so much "safer" now?! Why do people believe this??????????? At least in CA all they did was fingerprint us every five years. I guess they thought we might change our fingerprints!
The "good morals" clause sounds like something my mother was forced to sign back in the 1930s. Does this mean we haven’t "come a long way, Baby?"
Sigh . . .
I would like to add a lttle enlightenment here on the whole War on Iraq issue. First of all I am not against France in any way, but I am not for them either. But many people are portraying the French as noble in seeing the war is unjust. For the record the French have a lot of industry that comes from that area of the world. I hate to say it, but the reason the French are not in this war is because a lot of the French economy comes from the middle east, not to save lives in Iraq. The area a government just like we are here in America, they are covering their own butts if you know what I mean….Looking out for their best interests and being involved in this war would hurt their interests.
Hey LVB,
I really understand. I love the US bu tbecause of the hassle and harassment I, as many others stopped to come there. We don’t even have pictures on IDs here lol. If Bush is re-elected it is going to be such a mess. Buy hey, Que sera sera
This comment is all over the place but i hope it makes sense.
Being an American is no different than being British, African, Japanese of French. Those titles are just the places you were born, PERIOD.
Within those titles there are almost identical types of people with common interest.
I don25t get involved in the politics of governments; they are all corrupt, everyone is the same just separated by time. ROME was once the Superpower also, the greatest empire ever.. Right?
Isn25t that what they are saying about the US? Where is the ROMAN Empire and other empires of such?
Every nation on this earth at some point has been hostile and unforgiving.
So in closing, to group an individual with the government of where that individual was born is Insane..
I don’t know about you folks but a line on a map doesn25t make you any different from anyone else… and Americans are probably the biggest offenders in that area. Isn25t America made up of hundreds of cultures??
Oh well, sa la vie
Oh and I25d like to recognize the French people for being so accepting of African Americans during the great wars, many of which stayed in France because they weren25t treated that nicely by the government they were fighting for &. Interesting
SalB/LVB/Dr. Eska: In all seriousness, it is a disgrace what the Patriot Act is doing to us. There is no way that we should be treated as criminals. Or worse, that we are under the hell of a jackboot government. Time to round up the Harleys and head to Hollister. Donerail
Hello, I am an American living in France and first thing to say is I have never been in a forum but I after reading a few comments here I had to say something about this US/France/war conflict.
"Gaston", "AmericanArmyBrat", "chunkyd" and "Fabbrice" are correct. It is virtually impossible to boycott all French products or label a nationality based on country border lines. Are you aware that there are alot, I mean ALOT of products and companies that you may think are American are in fact French or from another country? I respect people’s "American duty" to boycott the French based on their anger or hostility towards the French government. But first educate yourself on the whole global situation and not what you here from the American media alone. And if you still hate the French, that of course is your right; silly and narrow-minded in my opinion, but your right to do so.
And since you obviously have access to the internet, you can look at the global situation from a more "international" viewpoint and not just what you may hear or read in the American media. Read it all; all of what the entire world has to say about this situation and then have an opinion. In all honesty I have lost my faith and opinion on this international situation because our voice will not be heard and Bush will do as he pleases. I do not dislike him nor do I dislike the French. I am not into politics. I just want facts. But whatever we say, it will not change whatever is to come. We citizens are the weakest voice to be heard…in ANY country!
But anyhow, thank you for listening. And because I repect peoples decision to boycott French items, here is a very, very small of an infinite list of French companies/products all sold in the US for you to "boycott" http://www.metrospy.com/boycott_consumer.htm
and not on the list:
California Wines Napa Valley – (because the French gave a vine to be put in thier vinyards for harvesting so in reality you are drinking "French Wines"
The famous "French Fries" – are actually from Belgium so change to "Belgian Fries" if it makes you feel more comfortable and not "Liberty Fries".
Mrs. Liberty – speaking of Mrs. Liberty, which was designed by Gustav Eiffel (yes he made the Eiffel Tower too) well we might as well blow it up because the French gave it to us as well
Esprit – clothing company
Origins – L’Oreal ownes a percentage of this company
Maille – mustard condiment
Le President – dairy and cheese products
LU – cookies and crackers
Lexxus Motor Co. – owns a % of Nissan and Renault owns a % of Nissan which makes it part French
DSC Communications Corp – telecommunications company bought by Alcatel a French telecommunications company.
Grand Marnier – orange liquor
Chammbord – raspberry liquor
Calgon Corp – bought by Suez
Culligan Water – Vivendi Environment. Vivendi entered the U.S. market in 1999 with a $7.9 billion takeover of USFilter. USFilter of Palm Desert, Calif., delivers water to about 13 million people in 600 communities. Suez paid $1 billion for United Water Resources of Harrington Park, N.J., which provides water service to about 12.5 million people. (taken from the IGWA – Idaho Ground Water Association.
The list goes on and on….
I am sure there alot more products owned by the French that we do not even know about. But take my advice, it really does not make any sense to boycott because in accuality you will also boycott American items too.
If there hadn’t been any risk to my job, I’d of been out there protesting in NYC right along with the rest of them. If i get arrested for any little thing, my career is over…so I have to shut up, say nothing, write nothing and "behave"
I hate what the USA has turned into. When I was a student, we learned about the evils of Russian government and the extreme restrictions placed on their citizens. We were taught to appreciate and value the USA for its openness and freedom. In other words, be GRATEFUL that you live here. When I see the changes in this country, I think, Welcome to the United States of Russia….
and by the way I did not mean to put "AmericanArmyBrat" in the last note. Our views are completely oposite. Sorry…"AmaricanArmyBrat" but I respect you though.
BTW, for that digital fingerprint scan, I had to pay $79 to the State of NJ for that "privledge". Did you really think it would be free? oh no! I had to have a certified check or money order. The state doesn’t trust its citizens for a regular personal check. I got a money order. It was cheaper than having a check certified by the bank.
You’re absolutely correct there, Sequoia.
In my (humble) opinion, this boycott (but that is true of any boycott) cannot work because:
1. It hurts those that would be most in position to change whatever the boycott is trying to accomplish (more on that later), and,
2. The collateral damages are huge.
Let’s take this second point. In the list on the website given by sequoia, you see companies like Culligan, or Gucci, or RCA.
Now, we live in an economical cross-polinated world. Big conglomerates (whether French, American, Korean or British) have interests all over the world. So you have to determine if you wish to punish the shareholders at the expense of workers/employees or the the other way around. If you live in the USA and you want to boycott French products, and effectlvely cancel your Culligan account, you are putting American workers on the street. Is that really what the boycott is supposed to accomplish?
Plus because everything is now so intertwined you need to keep up with the business world on a hourly basis. Just in the last week or so, Vivendi Entertainment merged with NBC, giving 20% of NBC to the French. 20% is a lot, so… no more Nightly News??? No more Friends? Or is is okay because it’s less than 50%?
Let’s take another example. Johnny Depp lives in France and certainly his movies must deserve to be boycotted, just because of that fact, right? But in fact to be truly effective, the pressure must be applied to the studios who finance his movies and pay his hefty salary. So there, you’re now boycotting Disney (although because they make some money with Euro Disney which benefits some French employees, they may be high on the list of all self-respecting French boycotter).
You see, you just can do it coherently. It may make you feel better, but it’s sheer nonsense.
Now for the first point. Please realize than when you are boycotting a French restaurant in your local community, you are probably hurting someone who left France to get to the US, someone who believes in the US and the American way of life, and who’s happy here, except, that now she or he is in the midst of a conflict he or she did not choose and who may very likely be in agreement with you and not with the French government.
So before you boycott, ask, or better yet, don’t do it!
G.
Do you have to take the $200 teacher competency test? Since they pay us so well, it’s no problem . . . right?!
Manray my good man as well as all of you that don’t quite get why we are boycotting France,
Of course France is a great Friend. If not the greatest. That’s why were boycotting them. If we didn’t care about them, we would just forget about them. True friends aren’t just flattering sycophants. If we have friends that do that their probably not true friends at all: Thy’re just on for the ride. All that we’re trying to tell them is that if they liked the sound of Nazi boots marching through their country and if they like the same thing for somebody else. France is probably truest friend we’ve ever had. As to paying them back for the Revalution. I don’t think France is even the same Government anymore so far as who is the France we need to pay back Main-land-France isn’t any different than Québec. We’ve already payed back main-land-France during WWI and WWII, but do you think we still need to pay back Québec? Since Cananda us going into Iraq why don’t we liberate Québac from the opressive clinches of Canada?
Just a thought,
Vive la vrai France! Vive les États Unis!
LaVieilleBranche: Let me recommend the Lottery to you.
SalB: Being a Republican, money should be no object. Just wondering, do you get the $200 back if you flunk the test?
Donerail
Typos Fixed
Manray my good man as well as all of you that don’t quite get why we are boycotting France,
Of course France is a great Friend. If not the greatest. That’s why were boycotting them. If we didn’t care about them, we would just forget about them. True friends aren’t just flattering sycophants. If we have friends that do that their probably not true friends at all: Thy’re just on for the ride. All that we’re trying to tell them is that if they liked the sound of Nazi boots marching through their country and if they like the same thing for somebody else. France is probably truest friend we’ve ever had. As to paying them back for the Revalution. I don’t think France is even the same Government anymore. So far as who is the France we need to pay back, Main-land-France isn’t any different than Québec. We’ve already payed back main-land-France during WWI and WWII, but do you think we still need to pay back Québec? Since Cananda didn’t want us going into Iraq why don’t we liberate Québac from the opressive clinches of Canada?
Just a thought,
Vive la vrai France! Vive les États Unis!
I’m too cheap to flunk the test!
If you fail the test, you get to pay another $200 the following year . . . and the following year and the following year until you either pass or give up and move to another state. We always had a few who went back to wherever about the third time around. Oddly, although they weren’t geniuses, they were all warm, competent, wonderful primary or kindergarten teachers. I was never completely convinced the kindergarten, first, second or third grade teachers needed to be able to pass a test in algebra, geometry, chemistry and physics. It seemed to me that a test in early childhood development and basic mathematics would be more appropriate. Obviously, no one ever asked me what I thought.
It’s Not JUST FRANCE, its the WHOLE WORLD.
First of all let me tell you that it really doesn’t matter if you boycott french products or others as it may follow with un-educated people like you. Go on promoting Freedom at the same time your own citizens cannot enjoy Freedom in the GREAT UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
It seems very awkard to place US Army next to the Royal Army of the UK its like having un civilized people fighting with civilized people.
Its just funny.
SalB: If Arnold raises the test cost to $300, it could be the answer to California’s financial woes. Donerail
That message was directed towards Army Brat who wa sprobably a bully at school, I know there are fair minded americans who like europeans cherish freedom, real democracy.
I don’t think that’s the solution. Most of those who fail it the first time never try again. It would also make it very difficult to recruit from out of state so all those Indiana, Montana and Wisconsin teachers who can’t get jobs in their own states because of a teacher surplus would stop coming to California where we still have babies.
Now if Arnold would raise it to $1500, perhaps there would be some incentive to study for the exam . . . or they could close the schools because no one could afford to take the test.
The joy of being retired is that I don’t care what Arnold does. If it gets bad enough, we can move and not have to pay California taxes on our retirement.
Listen EuropeanUnion2003,
I understand that It’s not just France and the International Comunity (whatever that means) except for 37 countries were against us, were against us. But that’s not the point. You see France is our closest friend and we’re just trying to key them in a bit. We don’t really care as much about China, Belgique, Germany, South Africa and all those other counties that never had anything to do with us. Read my privious letter.
GO to
http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html
and tell me we didn’t have a reason!
By the way you might want to know in French the EU is America (Étates Unis)
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
SalB: Spoken like a true Republican. Donerail
Listen EuropeanUnion2003,
I understand that It’s not just France and the International Comunity (whatever that means) except for 37 countries were against us, were against us. But that’s not the point. You see France is our closest friend and we’re just trying to key them in a bit. We don’t really care as much about China, Belgique, Germany, South Africa and all those other countries that never had anything to do with us. Read my privious letter.
GO to
http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html
and tell me we didn’t have a reason!
By the way you might want to know in French the EU is America (Étates Unis)
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
My goodness, two days ago I was a rabid left winged radical and now I’m speaking like a Republican. You have odd thought processes.
To all,
The importance of international relations is that we become tolerant of different political ideologies. If France, along with other UN countries, doesn’t support our involvement in Iraq, then that is their choice. No need for all this boycotting trash.
SalB: Not at all. It is just that you are "all over the lot" – as perhaps a Shrink might say. Donerail
heh, I just want to say, you gave a great link Amero-Frank
And that I aggree with femme4′s last post(nice one).
I think a shrink might have more to say about your penchant for putting people in little slots and then trying to force them to fit. You must have had lots of fun with your blocks as a child!
Amero-Frank
I am glad you don’t really care about China, Belgium, Germany, more and more countries continue to reject USA, it’s not the countries….. it’s all the citizens. Promoting Freedom around the world when in your borders, your own citizens don’t enjoy freedom is ironic. After the war the real losers are people who justify what happened. Whether its Europe, South America, Australia, Asia, Africa and The Middle East there is a common feeling.
Hi there nice to see everybody back. Obviously SalB and Donerail are starting to set the arean for future exciting debate lol
EuropeanUnion2003,
First of all I think the Topicallity of your argument is way off base.(meaning you’ve changed the topic of the conversation) The conversation is supposed to be about "Should be buycott France. Not about if we should boycott Chine, Belgium, Germany or what ever other country. Or wether they had a say in the matter of not. I said why we are boycotting France and not any other country. (because we like them) You see since our Revaution when the French helped us out and we’ve always had some sort of brotherhood whith France. That’s why.
Being an American I find it quite odd being told what freedom is. We’ve always had some since of freedom and we always go back to the day with the peaceful settler in a log cabbin with wife. He doesn’t really care abot conquering nations or serving loyal duty to the King, but when his coutry and family are in danger it was his duty to pick up that old musket off the mantel, and well, go to war.
You see we’re so fare beyond those Emperialistic whims and being given an excuse by our King, that we don’t even care or think about be labeled as that.
What has the world come to. Is the whole world just one big counry now? Do we all have to agree on everything before we do it our selfs? (by the way 37 nations help out in the coalition. Luckially the whole world wont be one happy big country untill about Revelation 19.
Also that link I gave you:
http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html
is not some sort of exuse for the war. I was put up by the kurdish government (who by the way have as much sovernty as Germany or Russia) before the war was even thought of.
Why do you Russians get to Bomb your own people into the stone age, (Chechnia) but when we try to defend ourselfs were some triranical beast? Nothing agianst the Russians they’re great people. But why does Putin get too? If you start thinking about it he does get to and he shouldn’t tell us not to try to liberate Iraq.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
P.S. Why do all the states in the Europian Union get to send their indifiduial delagates to the UN, but all the states in America just get one instead of 50?
Hi DrEska: Good to hear from our neighbor to the north. It would be nice to be able to debate with SalB. Unfortunately she is so defensive that it makes sprited debate (or any other debate) almost an impossibility. Fortunately, she is an impeccable source of travel tips and for that I am grateful. Donerail
I don’t think it really matters anymore how many delegates we send to the U.N.- the U.S. castrated UN’s power by deciding to go to war anyway (don’t take this as my approval or disapproval of that decision). America does what it wants- whether other countries like it or not.That’s a perk of being on top, even though it may burn some bridges.
As for the boycotting, I can’t imagine going a day without all those French products.
actually I have better travel tips, I just don’t share
Here is my soap box – It really peeves me that Americans get on the French’s case. I respect Americans that have gone to france and had bad personal experiences – I can accept that. No offense to those that have true reasons to hate the French. However, hating the French just because America is not their number one priority, is narrow-minded. For example, Germany didn’t necessarily support the war and still we were not boycotting Christmas trees, the Easter Bunny, saurkraut, beer and kindergartens.
In regards to France and it’s products, there is a reason why French is the second language of business – look at the Olympics. The French are everywhere in business. During these days of international commerce it is virtually impossible to get anything simply "made in America." There is always some component made in Thailand, Tawain, China, Vietnam or even France. Love American and recognize what France has done for us.
Also, we saved the French’s butt in WWII, yes we did, but the French have historically
A) supported us through the revoltutionary war and other wars b) contributed to our culture. For example, most of the military and words used today, president, lieutenant and chief are of french origin. Place names: Detroit, St Louis, Des moines, Lousiana, New Orleans, etc. Words we use for cooking are french: sauttee, flambee, chef. In fact, up to 50% of the vocabulary we use everyday is French based, not latin. Just in this posting alone, words like: regard, recognize, impossible, save, international are French cognates. Also, if you boycott France you may want to boycott Vietnam, St Martin, Quebec, Tahiti, French Guana, Tunisia, Monoco and Algeria because those are also French colonies. Do the research! and perhaps then those that want to boycott the French will a) accept that they don’t like the French, but boycotting is riduculous or perhaps, those people will start speaking spanish in protest.
LVB: I thought teachers are supposed to share. Donerail
Amero-Franc
You Honestly think, the US delegates compare to the EU Delegates? Don’t forget Europe is the cradle of Freedom and Human Rights, something not possible for many citizens in your country.
It was really funny to watch the news in France about a judge in Alabama who would refuse to take the 10 commandments down at the court house, and how many people would just follow what he said. Do not forget your country mixes religion and politics all the time, something very disturbing for the 21st century.
Of course you will agree with war, as long as you keep eating grass, like cows do on the fields.
God Bless America
donerail, Do you remember the old junior high school saying, "It takes one to know one." You are more defensive than I ever thought of being. Your posts scream "defensive."
Hey EuropeanUnion,
when someone runs out of steam with an argument, they invariably turn to nasty attcks rather than try and elevate the debate. You don’t agree with someone, so, now he’s a cow?
Come on! I’m sure you can do better than that!
You see, I appricate AmericoFranc position. In fact it has helped me understand the position of those who wish to boycott France. And I find it very enriching and positive that it is precisely because the US and France are so close, and have always been so close, that the bashing of the French and French products has so much teeth in the US!
G
donerail: NO, teachers don’t share…trust me on this…they make the students share instead
European Union is obviously a German, for she does not understand how France and the U.S. are related.
Either that or an Arab Frenchman
Personally, I think France has a beautiful culture and is a beautiful country.
But why, do you not support the United States in this war with Iraq?
Another thing European Union, in America, it is usually considered a good thing to be called a cow. It basicly means you are chic, without having to know what chic means
Note: if you are fat, then being called a cow is and insult
LVB: I understand what you are saying. I just thought – silly me – that teachers would love to share knowledge. Knowledge is power and it may be risky for many to share. SalB, well read as she is, is only too willing to share – when she is not whining.
SalB: You are right in that I am defensive sometimes – usually when I sense an impending attack of some sort. (See, there it is again.)Personally, I think that is healthy to a degree. You, on the other hand, are defensive all the time. That is not only unhealthy but it tends to limit communication. Now don’t take this as an attack on you – just some constructive criticism. You should embrace my caring countenance.
Donerail
Gaston and Root:
I am neither arab nor german, I am 100% french from Normandy. I don’t mean to be rude towards you with my comments but I represent what the feelings of all France, Germany, Switzerland and many more countries around the world.
There was no connection between 9/11 and Iraq, said by your president. So why do you still attack them?? After putting them through so many years of embargo??
Attacking a country in the name of freedom when you dont respect the human rights of all your citizens, is very revealing to the whole world.
Don’t be fooled here in France everynight on the news we have US politics bashing because it’s just amazing the path you have intended to pursue, Iraqui people might suffer but in the end you will be the real losers, backlash has begun, wait 50 or 100 years from now.
donerail: knowledge is one thing, good quality travel tips is another
what do i get from you for sharing my travel tips?
EuropeanUnion2003,
When you said that Europe was the cradle of Freedom and Human Rights. You were right, but only in the since that it was born there. In France their were political Philosophers like Montesquieu who believed that all rights came from God not from the Government. He is considered Ideological Co-Founder of the American Constitution, for most of America’s founding father’s read his book. However this movment that was started in France was hijacked by men like Voltaire, who saw the Bloodless Revalution in Brittian and didn’t unserstand why in was bloodless.
You are right that we mixed Politics and Religion togeather and we got that idea from Europes Philosophers.
Why don’t you take a trip to Switzerland and go to their beatiful Old Supreme Court Building and look at the murial that the judges had to pass every day. On the murial there is a picture of Lady Justice unblindfolded with her sword pointed down on a book were it is written "La Loi de Dieu." Ever wonder why Switzerland has some unique freedoms.
By the way it’s not just George Bush and that Judge in Alabama all Americans must be crazy for you are only being told part of the story. You see the US Supreme Court has the same thing. Not only that but their 10 Commandments are right inside the court room above the Chief Justise’s head. (There is also a statue of Moses)
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
P.S. Voltaire’s last illness he sent for Dr. Tronchin. When the Doctor came, he found Voltaire in the greatest agony, exclaiming with the utmost horror — "I am abandoned by God and man." He then said, "Doctor, I will give you half of what I am worth, if you will give me six months’ life." The doctor answered, "Sir, you cannot live six weeks." Voltaire replied, "Then I shall go to hell, and you will go with me!" and soon after expired.
LVB: You get the good feeling of helping out mankind. By the way, I am still looking for a nice B&B, Chateau, or Inn in the Normandie area for the first part of November. Donerail
wow
Hey SalB,
Nice thing what your governor has just done. Sorry about the foie gras. Hey maybe I’ll ship you some and will write "Frozen Wurst" on the package !
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=624&ncid=753&e=5&u=/ap/20040930/ap_on_sc/foie_gras
CRC
Silence……
cool
crc95, Grimaldi Farms, also in California, is another producer of fois gras. There is a producer in NY state and those are the only ones I know of but that effectively wipes out fois gras in the US. This is not a major concern of mine since I can’t stand liver in any form. I do like ducks and geese but I also like to eat them so am not quite sure where I fall on the animal activist list. I do wish people were more concerned about cruelty to humans and to the environment than geese, but it’s a matter of priorities. As an exchange, Schwarzenegger could give up his Hummer collection!
Are you allowed to import "frozen wurst" and wouldn’t someone think it odd to see frozen wurst coming from near Paris?! The only thing I ever bring back is chocolate. You really can’t get decent dark chocolate here unless it’s imported from France! It’s an addiction of mine.
GO USA!! GO USA!! and GOD BLESS AMERICA
from cnn.com
BAGHDAD, Iraq (Reuters) — A U.S. soldier shot dead a rare Bengal tiger at Baghdad zoo after the animal injured another soldier who was trying to feed it through the cage bars, the zoo’s manager said on Saturday.
Adil Salman Mousa told Reuters a group of U.S. soldiers were having a party in the zoo on Thursday night after it had closed.
"Someone was trying to feed the tigers,” he said. "The tiger bit his finger off and clawed his arm. So his colleague took a gun and shot the tiger.”
The night watchman said the soldiers had arrived in military vehicles but were casually dressed and were drinking beer.
A U.S. military spokesman confirmed that a member of the coalition forces shot and killed a tiger but gave no further details.
At the tiger’s cage, now empty, pools of blood showed that the soldier passed through a first cage intended only for keepers and stood next to the inner cage’s narrow bars.
Mousa said U.S. officials came to see him on Friday to discuss the incident.
The tiger was one of two in the zoo, once the largest in the Middle East but today a decrepit collection of dirty cages and sad-looking animals.
In April, U.S. soldiers killed four lions that had escaped from the zoo. Hundreds of other animals were stolen or let loose by looters in the aftermath of the U.S. invasion of the Iraqi capital.
Did somebody say Foie Gras!!! Where can I get it in America?
Oh, come on, EuropeanUnion!!!
What is that supposed to prove? That a US soldier made a mistake? Big deal!!! You really think this is news? Do you really believe the French army is immune to this type of (stupid) mistakes?
This does not say or prove anything, except some will go at great lengths to find fault with the US army any which way they can.
If you think France will be a winner if the US fails in Iraq, you’re as dead wrong as that Baghdadi tiger! That is so obvious, I think even Chirac knows it. Get on the program, man.
G.
You can get fois gras at http://www.frenchselections.com/ the web site for Joie de Vivre. Don’t know how much longer they will be able to sell it though.
Look EuropeanUnion2003,
So one solder out of all the thousands in Iraq feeds a Tiger and gets his fingure bit off. This is one of those hiped news stories that don’t really have any realavence to aplacation. It’s like some lady chokes on a screwdriver therefore we should ban all screwdrivers. Yes, the guy was an idiot. Yes alot of Americans are idiots, but does that mean that Americans in general are idiots?
Anyway, I personially think that we should have stopped the looting, but we didn’t want to hurt the Iraqi’s feelings or something. We could of at least told the Iraqis to stop stealing things from the musium. I don’t really care about that stealing all those couches (devans) or his fine suits and other accessories. They really needed some of those things anyway.
Notice, when you said you were from Normandy, I didn’t equate you with those idiots that spay painted "Vient à votre Maisons" on American graves. Those gaves of people that died so that you could live in a free country. No, I didn’t equate you as that because I don’t think that all Frenchmen are that dishonorable. In fact I really don’t know what most Frenchmen feel. It’s just Prejudice.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
P.S. Chirac uses a rubber ducky when he takes a bath.
(oh yea but Bush wears bunny-slippers)
Don’t you people out in CA have anything better to do than worrying about a bunch of ducks and geese? Personally, I HATE foir gras! But who cares? Another example of a bunch of a few Hollywood liberals trying to tell the world how to live.
Well clearly if one American soldier acted like an idiot and killed an endangered tiger then logic would dictate that all 290,000,000 Americans must also be idiots too. If there is one constructive thing European Union has shown us is that the hatred flows both ways, he or she clearly hates America just as much as those Americans calling for boycott hate France.
I think I have the solution : since Americans all seem to hate foie gras and would rather go for a Whopper, why don’t we just stop exporting it and keep it for ourselves ?? It would make it overabundant here, and hence would lower the prices.
CRC
I just want to vent a little bit about a comment I have heard quite often from ignorant Americans (not all Americans) who are angry with the French. The idea that France would be speaking German if it weren’t for Americans, and that the French are cowards because they don’t want to fight, just makes me want to vomit. If these ignorant people who make these statements knew even a little bit about the history of the French and what they went through during the two world wars they would be embarressed at their own stupidity.
When WW1 started over 8 million young men went to war. By the end of WW1, well over 6 million were dead. They lost an entire generation of young men to the war. And most of it was fought on their soil.
They only had 20 years to recover from the war before another world war broke out. And they still fought with everything they had. By the end of that world war they lost almost another 1 million men. I would say that more than demonstrates their courage to fight.
As for the Americans coming in to save the day in the world wars, I think there were many other countries fighting for years before the Americans joined in. Until then the American government (not the people)was more than happy to sit back and make millions of dollars off of the war.
I have very low tolerance for stupidity. Boycott because you are well informed, not becuse you are an idiot.
No no, you are not alone !!
To Amero : Yes i believe ET rapted me when i was young and made some strange experiment on me ! =)
Seriously, thinking that reasons of our politics are only money & power cannot be proven or unproven, but it s the only thing that in my opinion can explain what s going around the world.
To Ikorelim : sad to see you go, i coudl’nt agree with most of your opinion but all were not senseless to me far from it, and thx for making me discovering F–France.com, browsing that site made me realize that fachism isn’t dead, i m just surprised your opinions going that far in the antifrog way, and surprised you could enjoy a website that delete each post not agreeing with their racist opinions, i thought u were enjoying discussion.
crc95, I think that may become a reality. I read someplace that fois gras was being totally banned so France may export it, but she won’t export it to the USA. You may get your lower prices, but I can’t imagine the farmers will enjoy that.
BTW, there are quite a few Americans who enjoy fois gras. I’m just not one of them, and I guess LVB isn’t either. I don’t like liver in any form. It’s something I never got over from my childhood. My mom loves the stuff. My dad and stepmother also loved it. Perhaps it was childhood rebellion. I didn’t like lobster either and I got over that. I love lobster now!
Hi Shanmac,
I think it’s time you get an air sickness bag…
I don’t know if without the help of the US France would be speaking German today or not. We may be speaking Russian. What I do know is that without the incredible courage and sacrifice of the US army, there would have been a lot more victims of nazism in all of Europe. And that France would not be the country it is today.
That sacrifice cannot be downplayed. I cannot accept that you write that other countries had helped France before the US army became France’s ally. Without the exception of Great Britain that is simply not true. Yes, France has an immense debt towards the US. You may not like it, but it is a fact of life and a fact of history. You may not agree with what some Americans say about France today, but that is no reason to twist history to your liking.
The French army did not give it all it had when faced with the German onslaught of 1940. That does not mean that all French are cowards, but it is a fact that the French army folded in a matter of weeks. The Resistance movement fought incredibly courageously against the Nazi invaders. Let’s not forget that either.
I don’t know what is your definition of "stupidity", but I think it’s time you read more about history.
Gaston: It appears that this Forum has quieted down and may now be a tad more civilized. It is entertaining how unstrung the Right Wingers can become. In any event, I am looking foreward to traveling to La France in April. And today the dollar made some inroads to the euro. Things are indeed looking up! Donerail
The French are really into nationalism and the protection of the French Culture, so are Americans.
I can handle the fact that you are anti-war, but your government sold out, along with German, Russia, and China to Saddam. Your press won’t own up to this fact either.
You talk of American arogance, talk a hard look in the mirror France. Your politicians won’t let you, and nor will the press. Never again will I ask for "French toast", I will now call it Freedom Toast. I will never again buy any french product or do business with any french company.
I will support any Congressional bill that is proposed to exhume American War dead from US Soil bought and paid for in our blood at Normandy.
The current French government has British, American and Iraqi blood on their hands. It will be a long time before I welcome a Frenchman to this country.
Gaston,
I would be interested in hearing how other Canadians and Austrailians, Indians, and French would feel about your version of history. I believe maybe you should recheck your history lessons before excluding other countries who suffered massive losses from the wars when trying to defend France and other countries.In case you don’t know, Indians, French, Austrailians and Canadians aren’t British. Great Britain includes England, Scotland, Whales, and Northern Ireland.
France didn’t have a hope in hell in lasting very long after WW1. And I find it extremely disrespectful of those ignorant people to think that it was lack of courage that made France fall. If anything the U.S.’s debt is repaid to France.
But at the end of the day, nobody really owes anyone anything. It was a horrible time in history for EVERYONE involved, and to then throw it back in the faces of others who needeed help, and to hold it over their heads is not only repulsive, but it shows a clear lacking of class, and intelligence.
Gaston:
Your comments to EuropeanUnion pulled me back in…Well Said…It is a fact that if American goes down in Iraq…all the world will suffer…including EuropeanUnion and his buddies…your stocks will go down, your food will go up, your gas will certainly go up, you will most certainly lose present jobs and those that are in the future…Why do you think that Chirac is now "backing off"…from the US and his harsh comments said before the Iraq war…HE WANTS THE CONTRACTS…HE WANTS THE MONEY THAT IRAQ OWES FRANCE…WAKE UP…see the world for what it really is…I wonder how the French Army would "fare" in Iraq…It would be interesting to see…how they would compare with the soldiers of the coalition…PERHAPS Chirac knows that the comparison would shed some very bad light on the French…PERHAPS that is his reason…Politics make strange bedfellows…
hey holland: keep buying "American" brand products, that are all made in CHINA!!! You go ahead and keep supporting slave wages, child labor, abusive working conditions, unchecked chemical polluting, and in some cases, outright sexual abuse of women workers, all in the name of "freedom" and "free markets".
Guess which country has comprehenshive worker rights, low cost health insurance, low cost prescription drugs, a fair work week and plenty of vacation time for its citizens? that’s right…FRANCE.
While you boycott France, there will be more of the wonderful wines, food products, clothes, handbags and other such French goodies for myself and others here who appreciate fine quality, good workmanship, and honest labor practices
Shanmac,
You misunderstand me. I never said the French were cowards. And I am aware of their valour in WWI. Again, please read my first statement on page 2 of this topic. Anyway my best portrayal of the French would be somed up by what General Musa said, "They are a folk right numerous, and full of might: brave and impetuous in the attack, but cowardly and craven in event of defeat."
Vive La Vraie France! Vive Les États Unis!
dafontai,
First of all I want to make it very clear that I am not anti-franco or as you said "Anti-Frog." (refering to someone else)
I myself am part French. In fact I can see some of the same things happening in France now that drew some in my family away from there. (or shall I say threw)
Also, The reason I asked you if you believe in ET was because alot of your ideas of gloabalization seem to come from watching too much Star-Track. The idea that if we all are one big counry then maybe we wouldn’t have to fight anymore.
"Oh, there’s just one problem if we might have too much planetism just like people used to have nationalism. Oh no, we might offend the little green men"
I’m just curious. Do you all watch Star-Track in France?
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
P.S. After Bush talked about colonizing the moon, what do the French think about the U.S. making it the 51st State of the Union?
"The current French government has British, American and Iraqi blood on their hands."
Sorry but I can’t read that without having envy of murder (so I’ll really have US blood on my hands).
Need to say that…
Go Jean-Luc Picard!
Saez: Don’t let an American redneck do that to you.
LaVieilleBranche: Go get ‘em.
Donerail
Hey guys,
At the beginning it was Ok to start a topic like that, but now it’s getting to be boring. As a Hungarian ( Hungary is in Central Europe, I just say that because I am sure you do not have any idea about it ) I can give you another point of you : both French and Americans think that the whole universe revolves around them. That’s why you are unable to stop and try to find a normal topic. Who the hell cares about buying or not buying French or American products? You call it patriotism? You know what patriotism is? Hope you will finish this so called deabate, you pseudo intelligent arrogants.
Donerail : I’ll get the tip
Please excuse the poor English of a small frog-eater.
zsolt73:
We have paid a very high price to be allowed to be a little arrogant…Not one American does not have a relative, a neighbor, or know of someone lost in conflicts that defended another country…Your’s included…The world revolves around America because we are always in the public arena…The public (World) puts us there everyday, whether we want to be or not…We were perfectly happy being isolationist and "living and let living"…however, we got pulled into WWI and WWII and other conflicts and emerged as a SuperPower…With the Cold War’s end, we are The Superpower and we get picked on a lot by lesser countries…whether it be that they disagree with us and our policies…it really does not matter…If we were PERFECT…the World would find something to "dig" us about…
Someone told me many years ago, an Engineer that I worked with who was probably old enough to be my grandfather that…"America is looked upon as the rich uncle…and all the poor relatives come to the Uncle looking for a handout"…If I "badmouthed" my uncle behind his back to the other relatives, I would feel a little ashamed of myself to come to him and ask him for money…Apparently, this is not the case for countries…I even read that money is given for cooperation from some counties…that sounds like a "bribe" to me…but, a bribe in America may not be the same as a bribe in other counties…How would I know, I am just an ignorant, arragant American…GOD BLESS AMERICA AND OUR TROOPS…
I’m so glad that Dholland give up his will to buy french product (he probably never had any neway…) because otherweise it will be "Donner de la confiture au cochons…" Curiously I’m glad to hear him saying that, our product diserve decent human being… With brain…
zsolt73,
Yes I know where Hungary is. Wasn’t that the country that started WWI in which over 110,000 Americans and however many million Frenchmen lost their lives?
Anyway, I think you are right that alot of Americans have alot of pseudo-patriotism. Even though sometimes a few outsiders get hurt I think that a little bit of False patriotism is healthy, however I don’t think that the sentiment that brothers across the Atlantic are feeling is patriotism. What they are feeling is probably a mix of Suicidal Globalism and what they think is a since of Imperialism in the air when it really is something that their superior corporations pressed on them because of all the investment they lost in Iraq.
Because of France’s lack of patriatism they are slowly loosing their Frenchness and are left with being Identified as being a "citizen of the World." This is why they felt as if their country was being invated when we took out Iraq. The problem with this is now they will try to defend everyone no matter how evil they are.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
ManuNice: dholland is similar to many Americans who have not had a proper education. They get one idea driven into their heads and nothing will change them. Most nations are guilty of misguided foreign policy at various times. The USA is on a roll in that regard at the present time. That site that Saez found says it all. Donerail
zsolt73: I think this is a good topic. Painful, perhaps at times but very healthy to discuss. My right-wing compatriot, ikorrellim, holds a view shared by many Americans. Not all think the same as ikorellim , but a significant and perhaps a majority do. Therefore it is important that you understand what is driving the respective viewpoints. With education and technology, violence will someday become obsolete. Until then, we must preserve the ability to grow, harvest, and trade those great French wines and cheeses. Regards, Donerail
donerail/manunice: where do idiots such as holland come from? are they really that gullible to believe everything their government tells them? especially the Bush government? nobody can be THAT stupid!
Americo-Franc: I applaud your views and the very intelligent, articulate way you are able to express yourself in words…I commend you for a "job well done"…What you would see at the end of a Letter of Commendation from the government…
Donerail: Gee, I thought we were friend’s…but then again…friends (in America anyway) have a right to disagree…My right-winged views thank God are enjoyed by the majority of Americans…and thank God this is still true…As I stated to you in another thread…the views of KINGMONKEY and CEMENTPROPHET frighten me…The views of non-Americans…well, I just try to enlighten them…perhaps I could express myself not so harshly, but sometimes harsh words are remembered long after soft spoken kind ones…I will never forget Rumsfield (spl?) saying, "that is the attitude of Old Europe, not necessarily the attitude of New Europe"…Anyway, I have explained why I have my right-winged views in another thread to you…
I wonder did you ever serve in the military? I feel that you did not…however, we are ALL entitled to our opinions…but I find it very hard to not respond to remarks made by the likes of people like ZOLT23 and Dr. Ness (sure wish he would come back…I still have a lot to say to him)…GOD BLESS AMERICA AND OUR TROOPS…
that site is hilarious! I did have one question for that site…just WHO is voting under the nation of Iraq? the people there don’t exactly have conditions condusive to going online…
I like what the Hungarian guy said and I would add that both Europeans and Americans should hurry to put their sh.t together and come to an agreement on how to work their differences. This century, as all scholars say, including the americans, will belong to Asia. China and other south asian countries are obeserving this quarel and are having fun seeing the real western coalition (not the funny one presently in Iraq) fall down.
I hope your descendants will love chinese food. Or perhaps they will be on the menu lol
LVB, Donerail : I also think there are many lies on this site (French people who voted several times for Kerry or American people who voted several times for Bush)
And you’re right : I don’t think there are many Iraqi people who have an Internet access…
But I found it very fun : your president is popular in only five countries
Dr. Eska:
And may I ask a doctor of what?
We American’s are way ahead of you…do you know who said referring to China…"There lies a sleeping giant, let her sleep for when she awakes, she shall shake the world"…If you cannot find out or let me know through this thread, I will tell you…He was not of this century…
No we Americans do not care for Chinese food…eat it only sporadically…
LVB: As to the origin of dholland, I would guess at Iowa or Oklahoma. Donerail
ikorrellim: Dr Eska makes some valid observations. The Chinese are very industrious folks and have learned how their resources were squandered in prior administrations. Oh, by the way, I did serve this great nation in the military some 37 years ago. I am fortunate that my name isn’t up on that Wall that I visit each May. Over 50 thousand good kids killed because our Government just couldn’t stop lying to us. God only knows how many Vietnamese we killed while trying to free them of something. It took a grass roots movement of doped up hippies to bring our Government to its senses. Now, 37 years later I see a right wing cabal at it again and so far has resulted in an enormous waste of resources. And when I go to France in April, I am going to find that it will cost me 35% more than it did last year. But, there is light at then end of the tunnel. In November we will have sent Bush and the right wingers back to their pollution laden South. Hopefully the Democrats will take a meat cleaver to the Defense budget and put the savings to good use. Ikorrellim, you should channel some of your energy in championing the cause of our disabled veterans. The treatment they get from our government is a national disgrace. Warmest regards, Donerail
Keep guessing dumbass. You are not even close. Only 48 more choices! I’ll let you know when you get it.
If France is so open and tolorent, tell me why your government has banned the wearing of any religous symbols?
The recent anti-semitisim acts throughout France?
That doesn’t sound too open and intolorent to me?
donerail:
I do channel my energies…I worked for DOD for 20 years, now I work for the Department of Veteran’s Affairs…in a hospital…I belong to American Legion, VFW, Vietnam Veterans Association…I was stationed in Japan during the Vietnam War(females did not go into combat then…you know, our fragile selves) and have seen many a body bag come through the AF Base where I worked…I agree, that was a waste…and I am still trying to figure out how we got ourselves into that mess…I lost some friends over there…As far as the polluted south…Don’t talk about how much better things are at home because we (in the south know better)…Many of us have visited or actually LIVED in northern shitholes like Detroit, Chicago, DC, Baltimore, NY, NJ, Pittsburgh, etc. and we have the scars to prove it. Don’t comlain that the South is dirty and polluted…None of our lakes or rivers have caught on fire recently. We know our heritage…Most of us are more literate than you, (e.g., Welty, Williams, Faulkner). We are also better educated and generally a lot nicer. We have plenty of business sense (e.g. Fred Smith of FedEx, Turner Broadcasting, MCI WorldCom, MTV, Netscape). Naturally, we do, sometimes have small lapses in judgment (e.g., Carter, Duke, Barnes, Clinton). We don’t care if you think we are dumb. We are surely not dumb enough to let someone move to our state in order to run for the Senate. So if you think we’re quaint or losers because most of us live in the countryside? That’s because we have enough sense to not live in filthy, smelly, crime-infested cesspools like our Yankee neighbors do…Of course, they now see the grass is greener on the other side and are moving down here in droves…and try to bring their rudeness, loudness and down right insulting behavior with them…It does not work…they stick together…because they have to…
As far as my voting democratic…I have always been a democratic…South Carolina was always democratic until our late senator Strom Thurmond (whom we loved)…changed his party affiliation…and that changed a lot of minds in South Carolina…I would like to see a Clark/Edwards Ticket…or a Kerry/Clark or a Clark/Kerry…that would probably change my mind…I think the others are just "blowing smoke" now and it is time for them to pull out gracefully and back another candidate or leave their loyal voters open to choose whom they would like to vote for…and in closing…Once it was heard, "Save your Confederate Money Boys, the South shall rise again"…Well, it has…only in a way that no one expected…Industry, tourism, algriculture…so we have risen above and beyond what was ever expected or dreamed…Come visit us sometime…only please don’t order filet mignon or pasta primavera at Waffle House…You will confuse them…Also, don’t put gravy on your grits or order wheat toast…eat your grits with cheese or butter or both as God intended and put your sausage gravy on your bisquit if you must…warmest regards
dholland : you are an idiot…
I have no time and not enough english vocabulary to start a philosophical debate with you but… do you know what is laicity ?
France is a laic country since 1789. You’ve got the right to wear religious symbols in the street but have to drop them in the public institutions like school, police station, National Assembly, etc…
The separation of the church and the state is a good thing. A religion is not privileged more than another. It is the story of the France and you can’t change it.
Look at you ! Bush can’t pronounce one sentence without introducing "God bless America, our troops" "We pray for you" "Thanks God" "God saved me" etc…
Remember, if he’s re-elected, it will be because of the Christians fondamentalists "Evangélistes" (don’t know the word in English)
And about the anti-Jews acts, many of them were hoaxes, but I’m nearly sure that Fox News didn’t say that.
But anyway, why do you feel concerned when a Jew is attacked ?
Maybe because your country is the biggest friend of Israel ?
What about the anti-Arabians feelings in USA ?
We could talk for hours and hours…
http://www.rosenblog.com/2004/07/13/french_hate_crime_was_hoax.html
Actually I’m thinking about registering Democrat (By the way my family has been Democrat ever since one generation after the civil war) and voting for Sharpton. That way when it comes time for the election Bush will be a shoe in. After all he’s the only guy among the Dems who seems to believe anything. I disagree with him on almost every major issue, but hey he’s a true believer. Somehow I don’t feel right about voting for him.
Anyway I know someone is going to mention Powel’s "confession" and he’s probably going to explain that there were no WMDs so therefore the War was "illegitimate".
The truth is we didn’t need nor do we ever need to find weapons of mass destruction. Under resolution 1441 it stated that he was in material breech meaning he just had to turn them over regardless weather we found them or not. The UN simply said turn them over and then did nothing. Then we were left looking stupid. We had to do something.
Secondly, on Sept-11 Bush said that he was going to root out terrorism and those who harbor them which by the way Saddam did. It is common knowledge that Saddam paid Palestinian (Edomite) families in Israel to make their Children suicide bombers. That is defiantly terrorism. If fact in late 2002 the Israeli government found documents linking Saddam to other terrorist organizations.
You might say, "so what? it is not Al-qiada,", well, the truth is if we would have went to Afghanistan right before Sept-11 it still would not have stopped them. Ben laden does not have direct control of the situation and the truth is that about every radical Islamic Aristocrat does. They all had a little hand in it and as in seem Saddam had more than just a hand full.
In fact in a CNN 2001 report under the hedding
" PRAGUE, Czech Republic — A Czech minister has confirmed that the suspected leader of the suicide hijackers met an Iraqi intelligence agent in the Czech capital."
The one whom that were speaking of was Mohamed Atta the head hijacker of 9-11.
Within the roport in stated that the Czech Interior minister Stanislav Gross told reporters: "We can confirm now that during his … trip to the Czech Republic, he (Atta) did have a contact with an officer of the Iraqi intelligence."
It then went on to say He said it was known that Atta had been in Prague at least twice – once in May 2000 when he entered the country from Germany by bus and flew the following day from the capital’s main airport to the United States and once this past spring when he met Ani.
What do you want us to do apologize to the French and put Saddam back in power?
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
P.S. if you want to read the acticle it is at http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/10/27/inv.czech.iraq/
Saez: well said!
Amero-Franc
Thank you
Between you and you Frog friend, US citizen or not, you sure have a ton of posts and replies.
Get a life………but I will still support the boycott France trend!
Answer away, but I will no longer deal with you and your fellow Frogs!
Good luck getting Frog as the official language of the EU………
Amero-Franc: A while ago you were expressing frustration that this thread was drifting into too much opinion. Well, I can now see you are joining ikorellim in carving the likenesses of Faubus, Wallace, Helms, and Thurmond into Stone Mountain, Georgia. (These folks would never make it to Mt.Rushmore.) We in the Northeast love debate and we are very flexible. Lets embrace the objectives of the forum to provide an effective interchange of information. Vive La France. Donerail
Don’t u have a goat or a sheep to date right now Dholland?
Thx for leaving us alone, please go to republican-neo-con forums over there u will be able to hate french as much as u want thx and bo-buy!!!
P.S. poor goat…
love debate…more like argue…very rigid people…very set in your ways…the majority of you are from "Old Europe"…stick to old ways…do not come into 20 or 21 century…clannish…but, always want to come and visit Florida, DisneyWorld…and the warmer climates…even retire here…unfortunately for us Southerners…
Northerners are rude, ill-mannered, every other word is a cuss word…scream and yell at people for minor infractions…driving…let’s face it…you’re all hyper-active people running, running, running, to get where, you’re not sure, but you’re sure you’re going to get there first…Remember, Donerail: "The one who dies with the most toys wins"…
Roads are deployable…city streets look like garbage cans…crime infested…have to lock your doors…even your car doors…I must say…it sounds like well-educated, well-mannered people to me??? duh…
dholland: please…keep calling me more nasty names besides Frog (even though i’m born in the USA). Show the entire world how "open and tolerant" Americans are with their use of racist names to describe people, especially other Americans, whose opinion they don’t agree with…
Good riddance to you. Nobody likes you here and we’re all glad you’re GONE.
PS. This is just a guess..but you’re not from the area around Hollis, New Hampshire? And your real name is Debbie Holland? Maybe you have something to do with the Boy Scouts?
I’m sure the Scouting Organization wouldn’t want to have much to do with you if they knew of your hateful rhetoric that you posted here.
Ikorrellim: Your rantings are setting new standards for drivel. Love, Donerail
Manu: you have it right there. It really WOULD be giving jam to the pigs…what a waste of good jam! Better to send it my way…
Now it’s offical France and Russia were bribed by Saddam.
http://www.forbes.com/markets/newswire/2003/12/30/rtr1193929.html
This is an outrage!
There they go again; France and Russia making deals under the table. Remember the 2002 Winter Olympics?
I would like to hear from those of you who supported Chiracs policy. This could be interesting.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
donerail: i see you commented on patty’s shoes in my photo album….do high heels really work on a Harley?
I know this post is off topic, but ya gotta stop drooling over the people in my online album!
Where are you getting all that info Americo Franco. The same sources used by Bush and Blair to certify that Irak had weapons of mass destruction? I love this site almost as funny as Seinfeld. As for Irokelim (strange name for an American)keep going like that it makes me appreciate silence
dholland: Only 48 States remaining. What a challenge. Based upon your ability to construct sentences and spell words, I am now guessing that you are a product of Alabama or Tennessee. I’m surprised your parents (if you know them) didn’t drown you at birth. Charm us some more, you half-wit. Donerail
DrEska,?
Do you mean to tell me that you’ve never heard of forbs or CNN. What do you have a Doctorate of?
To tell you the truth I like to listen to news from other countries through Short-wave. Please don’t tell me that the U.S. Media is Bias and Europian Media isn’t. To tell you the truth all medias all over the world are slightly bias. There’s no Conspiracy involved.
Everything I gave you are documented facts not just some Psyco-babel like you hear on late night talk shows. CNN? Forbs? come on. CNN isn’t exacty Art Bell.
If you live in America I think you would realize that CNN doesn’t exactly favor the war.
Come on if you’re going to isolate yourself from all indirect observation, how do you know the war even happened. May be the media staged it. How do you know Iraq even exists? May be the hisory and geography books made it up. How do you know your own country exists? May be there was a joint conspiracy between the text book writer of the geography books in school and todays media and so everyone ease in the world is brain based into thinking that it exists so eventuially it happeneds.
The truth is I just read up on events.
Vive la vrai France! Vive les États Unis!
LaVieilleBranche: Please elaborate as I have no clue as to what you are talking about. In any event you must have someone else in mind. I may drool over a lot of things – but women’s shoes aren’t one of them. Donerail
Well Amero-Franco now we are talking. I never sided with Europe and I am certainly not anti american. I said in one of my previous thread that I, as all of us here are prisoners of the news and we are just having opinions without knowing for certain that it is true.
This remind what scholars are sying about knowledge. Philosphers argue that there is no knowledge without truth and some of them argue that it requires even the experience of the truth. As an example, before Copernicus, people thought that the sun revolved around the earth. That could not be knowledge as it was not true. Today there is too much information for us to base its transformation into knowledge only after prooving it true. I personnaly argue that experience of the truth should be replaced by trust of the source. If you trust sa, a professor, a Dr. etc…. that info will become for you knowledge.
The problem is that I do not trust the media (whatever the country of orgin of that media). We have seen too much of its contradictions lately.
So should we stop talking to each other? certainly not. But I believe that we should all agree that some humility will not hurt and that we do not know much in reality.
Your Friend
DrEska
PS. If you do some search on knowledge management and knowledge theory you will certainly come across my name. My real name that is;-)
LVB: Upon further review, with regard to what clothing to wear when you’re riding on a Harley. I would recommend just the shoes. Donerail
FORUM: What the hell is happening with this thread? Amero-Franc, you are fortunate to have DrEska as an instructor. Ikorrellim could use his wisdom as well. Donerail
donerail: there is a person claiming to be you, who left a comment under a photo in my online album. It was of my friend Patrizia visiting NYC. She lives in Milano. The comment was about her shoes.
Personally I dont think you’re the high heels type. I think you’re the French lingerie type, but I may be wrong, who knows?
Y’all need to go to http://www.france.com/mb/messageview.cfm?catid=14&threadid=178
and see what ikorrellim posted…seems she is making a trip to FRANCE in the spring! the French and all European hater is going to FRANCE and wants a platonic hook up with a Frenchman!!
<snip> Date Posted: Nov/04/2003 7:56 AM
Planning to visit France in Spring…looking for someone to connect with before then…then we can sitesee together…and get to know each other in person…
I am attractive, intelligent, career civil service…divorced 14 years…financially secure…
Want to talk?
can’t imagine her talking about much to any Frenchman if her words here are any example! if she talks to frenchman the way she talks to us here, they will tell her to GO HOME TO USA and DON’T COME BACK!
LVB: Well, that person was not me. Not that I wouldn’t do such a thing. And, BTW, French lingerie isn’t my particular cup of tea either. Donerail
Thanks Donerail. But I have been reading your comments on this site and I love your open mind and views. Nice to see someone trying to keep a critical mind on this subject.
DrEska
donerail: I’m suprised at you! A man who doesn’t like French lingerie?
Your loss…now Mrs. Donerail won’t have any reason to show you all the pretty things she buys in Paris then on your trips
hmmmmmm maybe that comment was from crc. He left a comment in my album and it was rather dryly written, just like the shoes comment. maybe I should delete his posts
dholland : please continue boycott France, the prices here will decrease and we’ll buy wine and cheese at lower prices
LVB, Donerail : I love French lingerie
LVB: I think you might like nice Harley leather. It looks like we’ve seen the last of dholland62. Its too bad, he or she was starting to get entertaining. Thats the trouble with goobers, their attention span is almost non-existant. Donerail
donerail: she vanished after I posted her name/location/Boy Scout affiliation. She can deny who she is, but I found her…you know what i mean…
No loss that she is gone. Why do people come in here just to start arguements? It’s sooo stupid and it’s just another way to show the rest of the world how gullible and lame-ass most Americans are.
On the topic of leather, I have a real Formula 1 racing jacket from a rider. I was watching a French friend’s boxes, after she had to move back to France. She won’t ever be back to the USA on a permanent basis, so after 2 years of hearing nothing from her, I opened the boxes and I discovered a REAL formula 1 racing jacket with the Marlboro patch on the back and front. It looks cool with a black mini skirt and high heels.
No photos of that, for my web page….sorry
donerail: I logged into my photo album and compared the IP of crc and the shoe comment by "donerail". Seems crc made a comment in my album about Patty’s shoes and signed your name to it. You can yell at him for doing this when he gets back to his PC in France.
I wonder if he’s been logging in here while being in the USA, spying on all of us and laughing his head off?
And on a different note: The NY Yankees BASHED the Red Sox! "BOSTON (AP) — The Yankees kept circling the bases, embarrassing Boston’s beleaguered pitching staff. By the time the long, long night ended with a devastating 19-8 romp over the Red Sox, the dreaded New Yorkers were just one game away from a shocking sweep."
Too bad! LOL
Shanmac,
No it’s not free. It’s taxed that means that you have to pay for it wether you use it or not. Anyway you can hardly get in with a Doctor on time, so alot of them are going to the U.S. thus paying it twice. Not only that but they have to take time out of their work to take the trip. It also takes gas money. Oh now, now I get it. It’s Bushes fault for the gas being so high. Anyway I’m pretty sure the gas is cheaper here.
Vive La vraie France! Vive Les États Unis!
hum … not sure exactly what you are talking about, nor accusing me for, but I’d be interested in knowing two things :
1) where can I visit your photo album ?
2) how can you get my IP address — and be so positive it’s mine ?
I actually tried to log on to the forums from a Kinko’s last week, but the server seemed to be down.
LVB, do you teach your kids the same way you lead your investigations ? Oh gawd.
CRC
Juliette,
Yes I do 100 percent agreed with you! American tend to expect a country as France to submissive and obedience to the united states!
reminder to everyone that france is not United States!!!!
I feel so ashamed that generally rest of the world sense under the control of our country.According one of astronaunts in the spaceship for moon in ’69, as he looked at the tiny earth and said why can’t each country respect other country and love their neighbor, not at war!
Tendreamie
LVB: Are you saying dholland62 is a Boyscout? He or she sure seemed older than that. I think he or she was older. With regard to the shoes, I had nothing to do with it and I’m sticking to my story. Apparently crc95 is denying it as well. Could it be Patty? With regard to the Red Sox, I haven’t been keeping up with it. I mean, after all, it is football season. And Election season, baseball is so trivial I can’t imagine anyone following it. Donerail
Tendreamie,
But you must remember, Wars are labor pains by which many a free nation was born.
Vive la vrai France! Vive les États Unis!
P.S. I think you only read page 1
Which poll is that?
Between Kerry and all the other Democratic canadates. I’m not sure Kerry is the most popular. Many people don’t like Kerry, but only vote for Kerry because they hate Bush.(That’s all this is about) You see there is a sort of illusion. You see everyones going on what the other states think, so therefore he must be the best to win. If they were to hold all the primaries on the same day stuff like this wouldn’t happen. If you noticed South Carolinia, a very indapendent state (after all they were the first to leave the Union) voted for Wesly Clinton Clark. Kerry in some cases was radical than Dean. But of course Dean is gone.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
donerail/crc: when I login to my album I see the IP of who left comments. crc and donerail have the same IP. You cannot see the IP without the album password. I will do a trace on the IP tonight when I have time and get back to you.
Hello Amero-Franc, it is Shanmac.
I apologize for not responding sooner.Can you please point out where in my last post that I said Health Care in Canada is free? I can tell that you are an intelligent person, and that you have an admirable passion for debate, but you shouldn’t let that enthusiasm get in the way of being thourough. I specificly stated that Canadians don’t have to pay UPFRONT and that our TAXES pay for it. That post was in response to the one you made that was incorrect regarding Canada’s health care system. Your not having the correct information about Health Care here is not from a lack of intelligence on your part, but maybe from the fact that you have been told or have read things that have not given you the total picture.I can tell you as someone who has been born and raised here, and has been paying taxes for a VERY long time, that you do not have a clear grasp of how the system works. It has it’s definate flaws that need to be worked on, but OVERALL it works.
But that aside, as far as French-Canadians being opressed and living a disadvantaged life here in Fascist Canada, I can also inform you that I am French-Canadian, and we are FAR from being hard done by. My family’s lineage goes back as far as 250 years here in Canada. I understand loyalty to one’s heritage, but we are very lucky to live in Canada, and we are proud of being Canadian. We have our language, our culture, and we live in one of the wealthiest provinces in Canada, and we also live in the highest funded province in Canada.
You were saying that you are bilingual, and I think that is absolutley terrific! Bilingual people here in Canada, that have French and English, have extremely lucrative careers here. If you have a sense for adventure and would like a career change, I encourage you to apply to jobs here. Then you could see how freely we live here and how we are proud of both cultures that thrive quite well here in Canada.
Cheers to you, take care.
Ameri-Franco:
To correct your statement: South Carolina did not go with Wesley Clark…They went with their favorite son, John Edwards…born in Seneca, South Carolina…but raised in North Carolina…
South Carolina has voted, since the 70′s, with their most favored and revered son, Strom Thurmond who embraced the Republican Party in the 70′s…Before that time, South Carolina was basically a Democratic stronghold…Strom Thurmond (R) retired from the Senate in January, 2004 and died in June at the age of 100…Fritz Hollings (D) is retiring after he finishes his term this year…so South Carolina is basically starting with "fresh blood"…
I hate to disappoint you, but I believe that South Carolina will vote Republican again this time…
Ameri-Franco: I have enjoyed your input…you definitely know "what’s happening"…however, in this case, I did want to let you know that Clark did not win South Carolina…Edwards did…the ONLY state that he has won…
Each PC’s IP is unique. Therefore, since I never left anything on that album of yours, it canNOT be me.
Pigé ?
CRC
LONDON, England (AP) — Thousands of protesters demanding an end to the occupation of Iraq took to the streets in London, Athens, Paris and other cities around the world, chanting slogans against the United States and Britain.
Saturday’s protests, the first major demonstrations since Saddam Hussein was ousted earlier this year, come as the United States tries to gain international help in rebuilding Iraq. The demonstrations were organized in each country by local activist groups that have informal contacts with each other.
London’s was the biggest protest, drawing 20,000 people. Demonstrators turned out in a dozen other countries, including South Korea, Turkey and Egypt.
"No more war. No more lies" proclaimed a banner pinned to the pedestal of Nelson’s Column in London’s Trafalgar Square, where demonstrators rallied after a march through the city. People of all ages, from gray-haired couples to toddlers in strollers, joined the orderly stream of protesters marching from Hyde Park.
Some young marchers chanted, "George Bush, Uncle Sam, Iraq will be your Vietnam!"
"I don’t believe the war with Iraq was right and the proof is we haven’t found any weapons of mass destruction," London protester Emma Loebid, 20, said. "I think they should hand Iraq back to the Iraqis and get the troops out."
Demonstrators, including those in London, also added the Palestinian cause to their campaign.
Some 3,000 people marched in Paris, where a wide banner read, "American Imperialism: Take your bloody hands off the Middle East." Others held posters that read "Wanted: George W. Bush-War Criminal."
In Beirut, thousands of Lebanese and Palestinian protesters demanded that U.S. forces leave Iraq and that Israel stops its attacks in the Palestinian territories.
Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian leader, addressed the crowd by phone from his headquarters in the West Bank city of Ramallah.
"Together with you until victory and together until [we liberate] Jerusalem," Arafat said, his voice blaring over loudspeakers.
Outside the U.S. Embassy in Athens, demonstrators hurled bottles at riot police. About 3,000 protesters, chanting "Occupiers Out" and "Freedom for Palestine," joined the rally.
Protests were also staged in other parts of Greece and on the island of Crete, outside an American naval base at Souda Bay. The base supports the U.S. Sixth Fleet and spy planes.
In Spain, thousands of people carrying antiwar banners, banging drums and wearing white smocks marched through the streets of Madrid, Barcelona, Seville and Malaga. "Oil kills," read a banner in Madrid.
In Seoul, thousands of activists protested a U.S. request to send South Korean troops to Iraq. Protesters chanted "No war!" and carried banners saying "End the occupation in Iraq" and "Oppose a plan to dispatch S. Korean combat troops to Iraq."
Some 4,000 protesters in the Turkish capital, Ankara, shouted slogans and unfurled banners to support the Palestinian cause and demand an end to the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq. Hundreds more gathered at a similar rally in Istanbul and burned American and Israeli flags.
In downtown Cairo, about 50 political activists and journalists staged a peaceful protest against Israeli attacks and the U.S.-led occupation.
In Warsaw, 100 young people protested the Polish military presence in Iraq, marching with banners saying "Down with the global U.S terrorism" and "We don’t want to occupy with Bush."
An estimated 1,200 demonstrated in Brussels, while about 400 people marched through downtown Berlin. In Stockholm, police said about 250 people staged a demonstration.
Opposition to the war has always been strong in Britain. Several large peace protests were held during the war, though none matched a huge rally February 15, before the conflict began, when between 750,000 and 2 million people marched through central London.
Now, questions about Prime Minister Tony Blair’s tactics in trying to win public support before invading Iraq have left his government struggling through its worst crisis. The ruling Labor Party is still well ahead of the opposition in opinion polls, but the public’s faith in the government and in Blair has eroded.
A new poll taken September 11-16 and published Saturday in The Financial Times found 50 percent of those questioned said Blair should step aside. The newspaper did not give the sample size or margin of error.
The London protest Saturday was timed for the eve of the governing party’s annual conference for "maximum political impact," said Andrew Burgin, spokesman for Stop the War Coalition, one of the rally’s organizers.
Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, another organizer of Saturday’s march, said a big demonstration would send a strong message to the government that the public did not condone what it called "lies" used to justify the war.
Twenty-year-old Liban Kahiye, also in London, said, "I don’t believe British and American troops should still be in Iraq. Everyday you hear stories of innocent people being killed — that’s not justice."
Ameri-Franco:
Let me correct myself: Strom Thurmond retired from the Senate in January, 2003 and died in June, 2003…
okie…here it is….the comments from my online album:
From: donerail @ 68.98.174.47 (Thu Sep 23 13:05:06 2004)
nice pair
of shoes
From: crc @ 68.98.174.47 (Mon Sep 27 13:27:14 2004)
Actually. you look kind of jewish
Dns resolved 68.98.174.47 to ip68-98-174-47.dc.dc.cox.net
apparantly, somebody in the forums is masquerading as donerail and crc and signing their names to comments in my album. Wonder who it could be?
Amero-Frank:
How dare you, call Canada fascit, when Canada received many of the people who refused to fight in the Vietnam war that Uncle Sam wanted to fight so bad for so many years (we all know how much of a mistake was that). Not only are you blind at reality as Canada is still receiving many of your citizens who dont enjoy freedom in THE LAND OF THE FREE.
I can assure you the majority of the population in France is opposed to what is going on in Iraq. France doesn’t owe America anything, if we were to say that, does America owe France it’s independence???
Canada is a human country, they are not puritans. It is reality that americans are now unwelcome in pretty much the whole world. Its a fact of life. And its a shame because there are many good fair minded americans who ahve nothing to do with right wing, Texans.
Welcome back Ikorrellim. It is unfortunate that Strom Thurmond did’nt retire 30 years earlier. I think most would agree that he was most despicable. Donerail
Yup, that’s not my IP. Apologies accepted.
CRC
be serious : eat french cheese !
Anymore than Senator Byrd? (Former member of the KKK)
LVB: It must be someone who has a crush on crc95 and/or myself. Donerail
EuropeanUnion2003,
It seems the only point you have against my argument is conventional wisdom. We are very much aware that our action was unpopular. Those that are against us are nothing like the whole world. Again, 30+ countries were in our coalition against Iraq.
In UN resolution 1441 it stated that Iraq was supposed to hand over all of the weapons of mass destruction. They didnt ask if he had them or not they just said hand them over. By the way France voted yes for it was unanimous. By the way Syria was in the Security Council as well.
In that resolution they were also supposed to give a full document of all their high-class weapons. This Document was later found false.
If you still dont think Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. How did all those Kurds die? May be they all just got a heart attack and died. Or may be Saddam unleashed the dam he used to cut off their water supply and they drowned. By the way we havent even began to find anything yet. We just a few days ago finally found Saddams anti-aircraft missiles. Do you think he might hide the bigger stuff even harder or may be even ship them to Syria?
Remember the reason for the UN is not to institute law for they are not a country. They are merely an organization for discussion and to make treaties. When it comes to war there is no national or international law. Thats why its war. Yes wars terrible, but sometimes its the only thing you can do.
How many more lives do you think would have been saved if we had gone into Europe in WWII earlier? Before Iraq we were always called the ones that were showing up for wars too late. All of a sudden now after just one conflict were Fascists.
Why do you think we went into Iraq? Some say, oh its the oil! Thats kind of like saying The reason we invaded Germany in WWII was for the Beer. Or more seriously for the steel.
Try this link. Its one of Prime Minister Churchills famous speeches. By the way this was before he was Prime Minster.
http://www.historychannel.com/speeches/ra_archive/speech_50.ram
Vive La Vraie France! Vive Les États Unis!
P.S. Shanmac I will answer yours as soon as I can.
ikorrellim,
I Stand Corected.
… and as you probably already know, people who have crushes on donerail or myself represent statistically about 11,68 % of Internet female users. See, that is a lot of people.
CRC
Oil is a better answer Amero-Franc
I think Europes ethics have almost completly gone.
They are now trying to try Israel for puting up a fence to keep the crazies out. There has been a fence for 30 years. I don’t know what that let you and don’t let you see in Europe, but even CNN is keeping the carnage and airtime way down.
What right do you guys in Europe have to tell Other countries how to run their bussiness. This phoney Heig or what ever you call it.
Now, after we got rid of Saddam’s empire. I think the U.S. needs to use Millitary force to liberate France from the EU’s Empire.
Europe thinks it rules the world again. They just can’t get over their empirialism.
The UN basicially controled by Europe has been trying to get troops on the U.S. Mexican Border for Years. Euroope is still ruling the World!
crc95: I thought the percentage was a lot higher. On an unrelated note, I certainly hope that all Forum visitors are cheering on the exploits of the beloved Red Sox. I certainly assume LVB is cheering on the Sox as they are truly America’s Team. crc95, I remember you indicated that you didn’t follow American baseball that much. Just think of the Sox as some sort of a blend of Napoleon, Charles de Gaulle, and Voltaire. Just two and a half hours until gametime and about seven hours until fabulous celebrations in the Hub of the Nation. Vive le Sox Rouge. Donerail
This is for EuropeanUnion
Wow….if all of France is so against American’s in Iraq you would think they could turn out more then 3000 for a protest. Im curious to find out what you people think would happen if the Americans were to leave Iraq tommorow. Now dont get defensive and avoid answering this question…..What do you really think would happen in Iraq if America left tommorow? Please enlighten me. Do you have an opinion? Or do you just like to complain?
Amero-Franc: Senator Byrd is no prize, either. But certainly not as morally bankrupt as the late Sen. Thurmond was. And welcome to Sweird to the forum! It would be interesting to know where you live as you have a very different outlook on things. Very different. Donerail
That would be vivent les Chaussettes Rouges
Well congratulations, I am happy for you and can certainly share the happiness since yesterday evening Olympique Lyonnais went to Turkey to beat the crap out of Fenerbhaçe (OL 3, Fenerbahçe 1). Lyon now ranks first of its group, and Manchester FC is only second. Champagne anyone ??
CRC
P.S.: by the way those stats were quoted from the Washington Times. So they’ve got to be true, right ?
Donerail,
You know that’s kind of weird. Byrd is now the oldest man in congress.
By the way what happened to EuropianUnion2003
crc95: merci. le sox rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Donerail
Amero-Franc: You must be more timely with your posts. I have forgotten what it was that I was trying enlighten you with. But isn’t sweird far out there? Donerail
LVB, you’re supposed to investigate on who hacked your photo album. There is no time for you to take naps or even yawn. Now get back to work.
CRC
ahem:
Sweird says, "What right do you guys in Europe have to tell Other countries how to run their bussiness." If america has the right to tell the rest of the world what to do, then so does the EU, especially if you consider that the EU is a GROUP of many countries, while the USA is a group of ONE country.
Sweird says, "Europe thinks it rules the world again. They just can’t get over their empirialism." substitute USA for europe, and you have a perfect match.
Sweird, your username fits you very well…
crc95: Said like a true manager. Donerail
That post about the American Soldiers in the zoo…. really reaching
Awesome. More for me then. I’m sure that the Chinese will be pleased for you to continue to buy their cheap, inferior products, particularly those that were once made in the U.S. by American workers. Hmmm, why aren’t you ticked about that?
AmericanArmyBrat,
You’re correct we should have taken him out along time ago, but don’t forget that THE USA are the ones who gave him allthe neccessary things he needed to get in power to begin with. We put him there, so it was our blindness and maybe even ignorance that caused the problem to begin with. If you want your dog to be friendly to all those that come around,you never feed him red, raw meat!
Camille — touche! The ignorance from people of a country that is so great that has provided so much opportunity to learn is positively astounding.
sexytarus77: " If you want your dog to be friendly to all those that come around,you never feed him red, raw meat!"….interesting analogy…
hi! I’m back from visiting a friend in Oklahoma. I see the francecom forum admins edited my msg…they didn’t remove that much from it…just a few extra vowels
hello patmag, welcome to the forums! it can get rather heated and rowdy in here, but that is ok. We all do like a spirited conversation!
Thanks. I’m not generally the analogous type, but it was helping to get my point across!
)
I notice from quite recent posts that some people (presumable Americans) are still boycotting French products. Even at the time when the US/UK decided not to ask the UN to sanction its war, preferring to rather take unilateral action, such a boycott would have been childish.
Many American’s talk about how great their nation is. Unfortunately, the impression they are giving to the rest of the world is not quite so appealing – people who cannot tolerate others disagreeing with them. What makes it even more childish and immature is that the French/German and Russian attitudes have subsequently been proved right. Much of the evidence presented to the UN and public by the US/UK was untrue.
France was regularly mis-quoted by US/UK politicians. France did not say it was against the war ?full-stop? but rather believed that the war was not necessary at the time it started. They were saying "we will not xxx unless yyy". However, it suited US and UK politicians to omit the "unless" bit.
In Europe and certain other countries (where I am aware of attitudes), the general attitude to the US have taken quite a lot of knocks over the last few years ? mainly due to their politicians and generally portrayed attitudes (e.g. "I?m boycotting French products because they don?t agree with me"
.
In Europe, you will find relatively little antagonism to US individuals. Europeans are mature enough to realise that within a nation there are a wide range of opinions and attitudes and they can "rise above" such immaturity.
If the US is such a great nation, why can?t it behave like one.
To Europe, the US presents a general impression of total self interest. It has shown total disregard to the UN over starting a war. Also, for example, the illegal taxation of steel imports to the US. The case had to be taken to the World Trade Organisation which declared it illegal ? which did not stop the US. For some time they just ignored the WTO. Self interest gains the respect of nobody.
I’m not for one moment suggesting that the rest of the world is perfect. However, the rest of the world is a little more "open minded" and less childish over e.g. "Lets all boycott the French as they wont agree with us".
I hope I’m my comments are helping some US people realise that maybe some of their attitudes might be a little "one-sided".
Well, I thought this thread was about Boycotting French products…however, I heard an interesting remark on the news the other night…It stated that the French are the biggest consumers of McDonald’s products in all of Europe…that was very interesting to me…I thought the French were quite particular about their food and wine…anyone care to comment?
js : two things.
I really don’t think of you as a naive person, but your posts sound somewhat naive.
First, about the UN : don’t you know that the UN is an American instrument ? They founded it, funded it, they still host it, and they lead it. The UN is supposed to be the US’ *legal* voice through the int’l community. Over the years, the US have constantly used the UN to bring their messages and help carry their int’l policy, and they have constantly ignored the UN when the UN would oppose their politics. Best examples : Israel, Iraq, and Panama. That’s why the other superpowers like Russia and China don’t give much a damn about what the UN might say, they know it’s not of much value.
Second, about the anti-French thing in the US : France was just used as a regular scapegoat here, and nothing else. France helped Chimp to gather his nation around him to support his war, against those nasty cheese-eating, surrender monkeys. I often believe France is a great scapegoat to the US. It’s a power, but not too superpower, so you can easily make fun of it, unlike Russia who would kick your ass. It’s filled with French, so it won’t hurt anyone in the US if you make fun of them, since French immigration to the US is older and statistically weaker than, say, the Italians or the Germans.
And, it’s a latin, roman-catholic country, that chose to have an easy-going way-of-life instead of a hard-working thrifty one.
So, I’m thinking Americans will likely continue to hear more anti-French crap in the next coming years, as long as it serves some dark purposes.
CRC
Ikorrellim,
This is indeed a very interesting story, thanks for bringing it up. It really should not be in this forum, though. I’m creating a McDonalds forum so that we can pursue this discussion without having to mix it with a totally different subject.
Please see it here:
http://www.france.com/mb/messageview.cfm?catid=20&threadid=525
Cheers
crc95. actually we are probably in broad agreement. Maybe I am to much an idealist and take thing to be what they are presented to be. Thus my opinions about the UN. I believe it to be a group of countries getting together to agree a set of common rules they will all abide by. Maybe naïve, but to me it is a sensible thing to have (for that purpose). It is that "idealist" view of the UN that I base my comments.
I actually disagree with some aspects of its organisation for example, why should anybody have any power of veto ? However, I cannot expect everything to be organised around the detail of what I believe and feel the simplistic "group of countries agreeing principles" to be a generally "good idea".
My understanding is that the UN is independent of the US, or rather the US is a member state of the UN (amongst many others). If the US consider the UN to be their legal voice to the international community they are probably "at odds" with other UN member states ? which is probably a contributory factor in the current problems.
Your comments on the US/French are interesting in that I had not previously noted that the US antagonism seems very directed at the French rather than including the Germans and Russian.
Do the American people not see through the actions and motivations of their politicians ?
However, there is actually quite a lot of antagonism between the UK (population) and US (not individuals but the nation as a whole). A significant portion of the UK population have a very poor opinions of the US, though this does not become unpleasantness to individuals, nor boycott type actions, more just verbal criticism. Whilst the Iraq war initiated quite a lot of thus, subsequent things have contributed (e.g. US failure to commit to the Kyoto agreement (‘cos they like the luxuries that high carbon emissions allow), Guantanamo Human Rights abuses, etc.
I am a strong believer in forums as the exchange of ideas, thoughts and opinions allows one to realise mis-conceptions, etc. one may have had and for one?s own opinions to "evolve". It is only through the exchange of opinions that we can really form our own opinions. Forums are an ideal platform as they encourage exchange of ideas between a wide range of people (who would never normally talk to each other). I suppose that is one reason why I find it difficult when some people get very antagonistic with other (countries) for the reason they do not agree with their own opinions.
Well, I guess the argument is all over now. They yet again found more mustard gas shells. Bush was right all along. I myself had my doubts, but it seems he was right.
Do you think that Chirac and Schroder should appalagize to Bush?
Or do you think that they were the wiser and Bush was just lucky.
Either way I think the French should loosen up on us being like some evil empire.
js : yes, many French wish the UN were that tool you just described, but unfortunately it is not. You see, French politicians are lawyers are heart. They’re lawyer-trained, and their views on things are always very legal. This is why they tend to want to abide by int’l laws constantly. I’ve heard some Americans making lousy comments on how France is doing to Ivory Coast the same things the US are doing to Iraq : but believe me, if France didn’t have UN support and green light in IC, the French Army would leave immediately.
About the British : I think we the French know that a majority of the Brits are opposing Blair’s politics of being the US’ poodle (as we say here), because we’ve seen some polls on that. I believe it’s even worse in Australia. I hope we can witness the result of that in the next elections ?
I hope you stick around in this forum the longest possible. Your posts and opinions are a valuable asset here.
CRC
I have some very long-forgotten mustard in my fridge as well. Whom do you think I should ‘appalagize’ to then ??
I know a lot of people that are boycotting French products, and in retaliation, I have done the opposite – I only drink Evian water, wear Chanel makeup – you name it, if it’s made in France, it rocks. Screw people who have no idea what’s really going on in international politics. Get educated, get real, get over it.
BTW: where are those WMD’s????????? Enough said. Get over your French problem b/c you should also boycott Germany while you’re at it.
Amero-Franc, I don’t think any apologies are necessary by either Chirac or Schroeder. The mustard gas was old and had been discovered long ago, supposedly destroyed but instead forgotten. They had no suitable means of delivery other than quite locally so the USA was in no danger from it. Mustard gas without a delivery system can hardly be called a weapon of mass destruction, especially in the quantities found.
I’m not sure any of the politicos were "wiser" since they all had their own political motives for doing what they did. I do wish Mr. Bush would learn to communicate with the rest of the world without creating such tension. His attitude appears arrogant to other world leaders whether or not that is his intention. Arrogance does not win friends.
I truly think he should have taken the time to build a coalition before he went charging into Iraq and "saving" the Iraqis. We may not have needed world support for the first incursion, but we certainly need it now and it will be well nigh impossible at this late stage. He’ll be lucky to keep most of the coalition he did bribe into the mess. I, personally, feel we should let other countries solve their own problems, i.e., if the Iraqis wanted Saddam out, they should have gotten rid of him themselves. Bush should have stuck to being President of the US, not saviour of the world. That, of course, is my opinion and others are certainly entitled to their opinion.
I’ve never gotten the feeling the French think of the US as the "evil empire" as you so colorfully put it. They are not happy with the current situation but seem to divorce their feelings about our government from their feelings about individual Americans. At least it seemed so when we were there in November. Everyone was most cordial to us. They are going out of their way to welcome World War II veterans for the 60th anniversary of D Day celebration June 6th . . . and the entire summer, for that matter.
Good to see you back.
holmgirl15: Welcome. I agree with you completely. Boycotts never work and the people who claim to be boycotting are simply displaying their ignorance. Donerail
Mustard Gas? Bush right?
Does it not seem odd that during the "War" there was no dangerous gasses released?
Why would these Iraqi rebels now use it over a year after the conflict "ended?"
And, isn’t it funny that Bush now had to crawl back to France and ask for help again?
Of course, he didn’t crawl, he’s just doing his duty. And I’m rolling my eyes every step of the way.
holmgirl15: There was a facinating article this week in the Wall Street Journal about how women in Irak are being assassinated by members of the Islam Religous Police. Those that dress in Western garb or otherwise being "uppity" are targeted as well as those that seek elective office. Being a woman, and being anti-Bush, what is your take on this? I never would have thought along these lines, but if the Bushies can get some modicum of civiliztion into that decrepit region – maybe I’ll have to change my tune an eat crow. Donerail
SalB: Thank you for that eloquence. You have expessed my feelings exactly and I think a good number of Americans. Bush is all about oil and the religious right. Unfortunately, he was president when we were attacked by those Islamic religious savages. We need a return to civilization, a spirit known very well by the French. BTW, I did notice a remarkable improvement in Amero-Franc’s spelling. That is so nice. Donerail
Hmm… I’ll have to look the article up and get back to you on that one. Even though I am not a fan of W, I definitely welcome any positive news from Iraq. Any would be fine with me. I am actually a little glad that W was re-elected b/c I want him to fix this mess that he’s gotten us into.
The problem is, we have no idea what life is like in the Middle East, and I find it very arrogant and naive of this administration to think that if every country in the world has an American-style government, we’ll all be hunky dory.
I am absolutely disheartened when I hear about things like the article you mentioned. I think it is an even bigger tragedy that our government is telling the Iraqis to be more like us, embrace our way of life, but the culture as a whole is not ready for such a large amount of change in such a small time period. As a naive American myself, I can’t believe that there are cultures who still treat women like this, and it makes me sad that we are provoking both sides. I will read the article and get back to you!!! Thanks for the welcome, Don!
Spelling really bothers you, doesn’t it. I never give it a thought because I’m terrible at spelling. If it weren’t for my unabridged dictionary and my CD talking dictionary, my posts would be worse than they are. I suspect many misspellings are simply typos. There is also the consideration that for many on travel forums, English is a second language so spelling must seem bizarre to them. You must admit, spelling in English is rather odd . . . at best!
holmgirl15: Thank you. Donerail
"The mustard gas was old and had been discovered long ago, supposedly destroyed but instead forgotten."
"They had no suitable means of delivery"
Look that doesn’t matter the UN said for them to document it anyway. I forget the latin word, but in a court of law it would make the defendent guilty for lying about something that is less of a charge.
That doesn’t matter anyway, because they already used nerve gass on our troops.
saxking, There is really no way of arguing with you about this being a set up. If you want to bring that point up, how about calling up Art Bell. He’s on at 1-am tonight.
I don’t know why this showed up twice… sorry!
HG15
Quot homines, tot sententiae
I heard on the BBC yesterday that authorities have "ruled out" religious violence by that group re: a group of women who were found killed last week I believe. The Islamic police-type group said that the women were prostitutes and everyone believed them. I’m sure there is more to the story, but I don’t think the "authorities" in Iraq really care about the issue.
If you could post the link to the article you read, that would be great. I can’t seem to find it on the web. Thanks!
HG15
SalB: Yes, spelling is something that I believe is important as well as good grammar. Typos are excusable – general bad spelling and poor grammar isn’t – particularly in a public forum. I don’t mean to be overly critical, but as a teacher you should know that. Far be it from me to judge, but maybe a oood deal of our problems in this country can be traced to an education system that tolerates lower standards of basic proficiency. Amero-Franc has gotten a number of mixed reactions from posters because many of us cannot understand him (or her). Donerail
HG15: Sorry. Unfortunately I read it in a "hardcopy." (How quaint) It was either the Wall Street Journal or Newsweek – I really can’t remember now. The article could have been a little over the top, but the treatment of women in the Mid-East has been appalling for centuries. Donerail
How do you know English isn’t a second language for Amero-Franc? If it is, he/she does remarkably well in it. I would hate to be judged on my posting in French.
I learned long ago not to make basic assumptions, such as a poster is either male or female or a poster is an English speaker or even that a poster is educated. It is a public forum and many members of the public fall into those categories. There are also a great many learning disabilities over which people have no control.
. . . of course there are those who obtain their political opinions from late night talk shows and I guess there is no excuse for that. I guess if you’re lonely and can’t sleep, there isn’t much else to do, but I think I’d take up meditation or listen to some good music.
I always held my students to high standards but believe me, I took a lot of flak for it. I’ve had principals (in elementary) and administrators (in college) ask me to change grades. I never did, but once a principal changed a grade behind my back. There was nothing I could do except complain . . . which I did, and loudly.
We are still in the "feel good" mode in education in this country. Everyone is quite concerned about their self esteem. I had a senior in college tell me once that all the red marks on her homework lowered her self esteem. I cheerfully offered to put no marks at all on her homework if that would help her.
She quickly realized she would probably fail the course if she had no feedback, but that is the prevailing mentality in American education. (I marked; she passed!)
I read a study once that said students who leave school with high self esteem that is undeserved become hostile when they realize they’ve been cheated OR when they discover they can’t manage either college or a job. Problems are always someone else’s fault so it’s easy to become hostile. The study blamed a lot of the current hostility on the self esteem movement. I think there’s more to it than that, but it probably is a contributing factor.
You’re right though, it is difficult to understand what someone is saying if the spelling and/or grammar are too far out of line. Think of it as a challenge and hope you’ll be forgiven if you misunderstand. That’s what I do . . . although I suspect I’m not always forgiven.
Iraq is an Islamic State, since the new constitution, so I think a lot of that will start being initiated by the government. I think the US stayed out of their business a little too much. I really don’t think it possible to create a very sable republican democracy, when the people are not as educated and informed as other places. Their ideology is not really made for it. I think that Montesquieu (Charles de Secondat,
Baron de la Brède et de Montesquieu)
was right: democracy isn’t the best think for everyone. According to him they really could have any type of stable government, because of the type of religious system they currently have. Next to Blackstone and loch, I think he was the best of the modern philosophers.
Vive la Vraie France! Vive Les Etats Unis!
SalB: as eloquent as you are on the use of spelling, i have to agree with donerail on this. A typo on occasion is one thing, we all do that. However, consistant bad grammar, bad spelling and the inability to carefully read and reply to a paragraph or post here are the hallmarks of a stupid person.
Amero-Franc is an American, with roots in this country that go back at least 100 years. This is what he posted months ago in this france.com forum. I’ve seen foreigners with better use of English than Amero-Franc, so what does that tell you about 1) the American education system, 2) Amero-Franc’s achievement level in this educational system 3) Amero-Franc’s level of intellegence, or lack of intellegence…
Amero-Franc: you’re beating the drum to a lost cause. the entire USA and the world knows Sadaam had no WMD. The entire world knows we’re not in Iraq for "freeing the Iraqi people". We were NEVER there for the Iraqi people. That reason only came up AFTER months went by and Bush found no WMD.
Oil is the reason we are there. Bush settling an old personal grudge with Sadaam. Haliburten and Bechtel are reaping billons of dollars in profits because of this war. This war is about the oil elite getting richer and more powerful. the WMD reason was a lie. If you still believe Bush on that one, please refer back to this post, paragraph 2 for the reason why you’d still believe such a blatant lie…
It’s easier to blame another person or country for your problems and mistakes, rather than admit to them and face them head on. This is what Bush did. Rather than tell the real reasons for Iraq, he blames Europe, especially the French, because Americans are gullible enough to believe him. This certainly deflects blame and suspicion from him about Iraq. Of course the media will follow right along with whatever Bush says.
Saxking: if Sadaam had WMD he’d of used them last year. But he didn’t have them. He state this to the UN, but the USA refused to believe the Iraq government, no matter what they said. We all know the events of this past year. No need to re-tell it here again.
I had been thinking this morning of how the USA refused to be a part of the international courts, because Bush thought Americans might be brought up on politically motivated charges. A year or so later, he goes into Iraq, and now we have the Iraqi prison abuse. America refuses to be part of the international courts, then suddenly their soldiers are caught doing heinous things, and cannot be prosecuted under international law. Had that been any other country committing the abuses, the USA would of pressed for prosecution. Am I the only one noticing a double standard here? wondering if Bush KNEW this would happen, so he covered up for the soldiers in advance?
Only time will reveal the possiblilties and liabilities in Iraq. History will judge American behavior on this subject, and I don’t think the judgement will be very positive.
Well look who’s back ! I know someone who’s gonna be happy. AF : you’re surprisingly right about the iraqi constitution, democracy and human rights is not an arab concept, however sad it may be. The US should have stayed out of this mess in the first place.
CRC
LaVieilleBranche: I was going to cancel my account on this site that is starting to get boring to say the least. After reading what you wrote I decided to stay as you said it exactly the way it is. However do not dream too much. Some people are in constant denial and will not change.
amero-franc!! Where have you been? When did you get out?
crc: Did you ever go to the Agricultural Fair that is held in Paris each year – somewhere around January or February – ?
Donerail
DrEska: hi
I’ve read some of your posts. It’s nice to finally exchange a few words with a thoughtful, intellegent person 
I read in previous posts that behind the DrEska name hides a famous person of intellegence. I’m curious who that person is 
The scary part is that Amero-Franc is a common example of how our young people in the USA think. If the majority of young Americans are as stupid as Amero-Franc on issues relating to the Iraq war, the French, the (future) draft, then what will ever become of the USA? This is not a good thing.
read this: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/31/international/middleeast/31ABUS.html
The various Iraq abuse scandals are just now starting to come out. The end result of the Iraq mess will be an entire Arab world that hates the USA, suicide bombers, new Al Quaida recruits, anti-American feelings/actions from the rest of the civilised world, including our allies in Europe and who knows what else. The consequences of this war will last for generations.
Donerail : the Salon de l’Agriculture is a MAJOR even here. You should definitely see it if you’re interested. I don’t know if you would though, being an urban bostonian (not to say a snobby new-englander), but urban snobby Parisians usually flock to this thing too, which is a sort of reconciliation of the rural and the urban worlds.
It a huge expo with beasts and farm animals and crops from all over France, with "pavillons" from each regions where you can taste their local food, and buy it at reasonable price. The Salon de l’Agriculture has become a trendy must see for many people in Paris, including all members of our govt., party leaders and even show business stars, all eager to prove that they care for the "ruralité".
One word of advice : if you are to go there, plan the whole day, and wear good shoes. And, oh yes, you can also taste and buy wine there.
CRC
LaVieilleBranche, donerail and DrEska, if all of you feel so strongly about good grammar, I suggest you each purchase a grammar guide. You make as many mistakes as Amero-Franc, e.g., the use of "of" instead of "have" in paragraphs 6 and 7 below. Halliburton is the correct spelling of Mr. Cheney’s former employer. The list could go on. A good editor would have a field day with all of us. We’re not writers nor should we be judged as such.
I’m not defending mistakes . . . just saying that a little charity goes a long way. My grammar is by no means perfect; however, I don’t complain about the grammar of other people. I think it behooves us to read and reply to the thoughts expressed without criticizing the means of expression. If a post is unclear, I think it’s fine to ask for clarification, but without calling the poster an idiot or stupid.
Just because someone doesn’t agree with one or all of us, doesn’t mean he or she is stupid. They may be misinformed, uneducated, ignorant or even possibly . . . correct. My goodness, could any of us be wrong?!
All young people in the US do not think like Amero-Franc. As a matter of fact, none of the young people I know think like him. I skimmed your NY Times article and it appears they have documented 24 delinquent soldiers out of a force of 135,000. (You would need 1,350 soldiers committing atrocities to amount to one percent of the troops stationed in Iraq.) Certainly we should all abhor the abuse, but we also should not blame the more than 99% of soldiers who are behaving as well as one could expect under very unfortunate circumstances.
LaVieilleBranche, You might check DrEska’s grammar while you are checking grammar. I suspect he’s awarded himself his doctorate even though he’s "a famous person of intellegence." (which should be spelled intelligence)
Politically, I believe we never should have gone to war in Iraq. They constituted no threat to the US. I’m aware of the Bush connections to both power and oil. I’m also aware of the France/Russia connections to power, oil and munitions so the French aren’t innocent in all of this either. I also know all wars are about making the elite more rich and powerful. I am appalled that we are not answerable to the World Court. What was Nuremberg all about if the most powerful nation in the world is not responsible for it’s actions? If we commit atrocities, we should be held accountable. It’s a powerful deterrent to just such things as are currently coming to light.
Sorry to be so testy. I find it upsetting when the pot calls the kettle black. None of us is Faulkner or Shakespeare so let’s be a little more understanding and reply to the comments rather than disparaging the writer.
crc: Awesome. Thank you. Donerail
SalB: I never commented on Grammar when congratulating LaVielleBranche. I was talking about his comments of the ongoing invasion of Irak. English is my 3rd language and I believe I am not doing that bad. Perhaps you could tell us how many languages you speak?
Amero-Franc!! When did the mental institution let you out?
You’ve missed quite a bit of activity in the forums. There were plenty of anti-French bigots in here for awhile. However, we chased them out.
Have you been using your time to improve your grammar and spelling?
SalB: Sorry, but I don’t agree on this one. When you look at Amero-Franc’s writing in every post, you see a pattern of indifference with regard to spelling and careful replies. A mistake on occasion is one thing, we all do that. However, his mistakes are consistant. When you try to correct him, he gets defensive and testy about it.
Where I teach, I would estimate 98% of the students that are able to understand the world situation dislike the French intensely. They routinely slander the French, and anybody of French ancestry. I myself had people attack my job last spring, because I have a French name. Thank goodness nothing came of their attacks, however, it is a scary thought in America when people can get you fired from your job simply because they don’t like your family name.
The thought of American soldiers profiteering at the expense of Iraqi citizens is disgusting. Even 1% is too much. Nobody should be using that heinous war for profit. It’s bad enough the Bush’s associates are reaping billons. Now the soldiers are stealing from the citizens. It’s morally repugnant. We shouldn’t even be in Iraq. Sadaam was no threat to the USA.
DrEska: your English is excellent! I only speak English and French, however, I can translate a few other latin based languages.
donerail, oh donerail, wherefore art thou???
This is from the NY Times. I’m not sure if this is the correct thread for posting, but here goes:
French Family Values
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: July 29, 2005
Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else. That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. For example, I’ve found that many people refuse to believe that Europe has anything to teach us about health care policy. After all, they say, how can Europeans be good at health care when their economies are such failures?
Now, there’s no reason a country can’t have both an excellent health care system and a troubled economy (or vice versa). But are European economies really doing that badly?
The answer is no. Americans are doing a lot of strutting these days, but a head-to-head comparison between the economies of the United States and Europe – France, in particular – shows that the big difference is in priorities, not performance. We’re talking about two highly productive societies that have made a different tradeoff between work and family time. And there’s a lot to be said for the French choice.
First things first: given all the bad-mouthing the French receive, you may be surprised that I describe their society as "productive." Yet according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, productivity in France – G.D.P. per hour worked – is actually a bit higher than in the United States.
It’s true that France’s G.D.P. per person is well below that of the United States. But that’s because French workers spend more time with their families.
O.K., I’m oversimplifying a bit. There are several reasons why the French put in fewer hours of work per capita than we do. One is that some of the French would like to work, but can’t: France’s unemployment rate, which tends to run about four percentage points higher than the U.S. rate, is a real problem. Another is that many French citizens retire early. But the main story is that full-time French workers work shorter weeks and take more vacations than full-time American workers.
The point is that to the extent that the French have less income than we do, it’s mainly a matter of choice. And to see the consequences of that choice, let’s ask how the situation of a typical middle-class family in France compares with that of its American counterpart.
The French family, without question, has lower disposable income. This translates into lower personal consumption: a smaller car, a smaller house, less eating out.
But there are compensations for this lower level of consumption. Because French schools are good across the country, the French family doesn’t have to worry as much about getting its children into a good school district. Nor does the French family, with guaranteed access to excellent health care, have to worry about losing health insurance or being driven into bankruptcy by medical bills.
Perhaps even more important, however, the members of that French family are compensated for their lower income with much more time together. Fully employed French workers average about seven weeks of paid vacation a year. In America, that figure is less than four.
So which society has made the better choice?
I’ve been looking at a new study of international differences in working hours by Alberto Alesina and Edward Glaeser, at Harvard, and Bruce Sacerdote, at Dartmouth. The study’s main point is that differences in government regulations, rather than culture (or taxes), explain why Europeans work less than Americans.
But the study also suggests that in this case, government regulations actually allow people to make a desirable tradeoff – to modestly lower income in return for more time with friends and family – the kind of deal an individual would find hard to negotiate. The authors write: "It is hard to obtain more vacation for yourself from your employer and even harder, if you do, to coordinate with all your friends to get the same deal and go on vacation together."
And they even offer some statistical evidence that working fewer hours makes Europeans happier, despite the loss of potential income.
It’s not a definitive result, and as they note, the whole subject is "politically charged." But let me make an observation: some of that political charge seems to have the wrong sign.
American conservatives despise European welfare states like France. Yet many of them stress the importance of "family values." And whatever else you may say about French economic policies, they seem extremely supportive of the family as an institution. Senator Rick Santorum, are you reading this?
LaVielleBranche and Donerail, the world is better thanks to you. It is refreshing to have you around. The USA are a great country and the americans real nice people, too bad Bush betrayed their trust. I was actually happy to see how Bush’s support from the american people dropped after they heard about the abuse in Irak. That shows that they were supporting him because they were trusting he was leading them on making the world better. The result of his actions: The USA are more hated than never before, Al Quaeda has more support than never before, the price of oil is up, the level of anxiety and depression around the world is at levels never seen before, more books and newspapers are censured than never before, People are afraid to state their opinion in the States as it was under McCarthy or Staline, less people are travelling, less exchange between cultures, the space program slowed to it lowest since its start, knowledge transfert has been very slow, and trust is at its lowest. The american people are not the cause of what is happening as they are, like anybody else, the victims of manipulation, disinformation, marketing, and false news. Bush is guilty of betraying his own people and making more than 800 young American die under the belief they were fighting evil. Sorry the world is certainly better without Saddam, but was a lot better before Bush! I apologize for any grammatical or orthographic error.
LVB : very good article. I wish it was published in the Washington Times rather than the NY Times though, but hey, you can’t expect too much either. I’m sending this to all my american friends, a little propaganda never hurts
CRC
EuropeanUnion2003,
SnookerC is right you can’t really pin anything down on the whole U.S. We are 50 Seperate but United Countries.
About this gay issue, I’m sure there are some states in the E.U. who are more radical than even Texas is on that issue. That of which is another thing you got wrong. Texas is not right wing. They are pretty conservative on social issues, but Utah and South Carolina are considered the most conservative states. The best way to put it is that they are conservative Democrats. I admit that tends to sound kind of funny to a lot of Frenchmen since they have a system of many parties. That is one thing that I think is better about the French system, because you can actually believe about everything your party says since its more specialized.
About the gun issue, Gun Nuts? What about Switzerland. Isnt it the law there that each household must have an automatic weapon? I dont know of any state that even allows you to have automatic weapons. In fact the Federal Government doesnt even allow it. Some states allow it if you have a FFP (Federal Firearms Permit), but thats about it.
You’re right alot of politician base their policy on religious beliefs, but I ask you how else do they base their beliefs? Their policy is based on their philosophy and their philosophy is based on their rekigion.
If you think we’re conservitive, I really don’t think that we even have a politician that is equivalent to La Peine. If their are any supporters of La Peine out there I would like to hear from youon this forum.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
DrEska: Welcome back and please stay with this forum as your thoughts are very well articulated and received. I think it will take a few more months, but the american people are resiliant and will dump Bush. I hope we will anyway.
SalB: You are a good diplomat, but as LaVieilleBranche points out, some folks such as Amero-Franc just don’t get it. We have sacraficed so many young kids for a reason that has not been explained. Most of us could care less about Iraqui freedom. Gawd almighty. Yes, maybe Amero-Franc gets his knowledge from late nite talk radio. SalB, take a stance and stop cutting those folks so much slack. Especially on this Weekend.
Good to see this thread warming up. And having SalB in the middle of it. Sorry, mom. Donerail
crc: That’s why I posted it
Before I post my comments, let me give you a little background on myself. I am an American who has lived in Paris for some time. I have many French friends and have a healthy respect for some French music, French perfume, French clothing designers, French food, French films, etc… you get the idea. What I do not respect is France’s attitude towards the U.S. during war time. I find them to be utterly cowards. They have never in history done anything to help or aid the U.S. in a time of need, ever, to the extent that the U.S. is forever bailing out one country or another from a financial crisis, a civil war, starvation, aids epicidemic, etc….the list goes on. Remember WW? If it wasn’t for the U.S. all you French would be speaking German right now.
There are alot of French people who have a chip on their shoulder about America for some reason… never wanting to give credit where credit is due. I knew people in Paris who thought Levi’s were the bomb but would never admit it because they are an American product. They love Euro Disney but wouldn’t admit it because it is American. Always negative comments regarding the United States. It is so hypocritical and it gets real old. Being nationalistic is a good thing but there is a fine line between Natinalistic and being fanatical. Thank you to those French who do have an open mind and see thing for how they really are.
I speak four although I can read several others with a good dictionary.
You may not have commented on grammar but you did say that LaVieilleBranche was "right on" which connotes agreement.
LaVieilleBranche, I have never agreed with Amero-Franc, just defended his right to say what he wanted without being called names. I’d get "defensive and testy" too if people were calling me names for voicing an opinion. If this is Memorial Day, donerail, we need to remember what those veterans fought for, i.e., the right of all Americans to have and speak their opinion. No one has ever said we must agree with them.
As for a pattern in Amero-Franc’s posts, I’d say the pattern is a pattern of someone who wants desperately to be heard but who has not had the education to express himself in a manner that seems to be acceptable to other members of this particular online community. No one writes badly because they want to. By all means, disagree with him. I certainly do. Just don’t call him names. That is putting yourself in the lower position and is no way to win an argument.
I’m sorry 98% of the students where you teach are in such a state of ignorance, but I don’t think you can take that as proof that 98% of American youth are equally ignorant. I would venture to say that nearly 70% or more of the students at the local college where I just retired are appalled by what Mr. Bush has done in this country since he stole office. I know the local business men are horrified at what has happened to the economy in such a short time. I also know there are places where Mr. Bush can do no wrong. I just don’t happen to live in one of those places.
I’m equally sorry that you were attacked for your family name, but you weren’t the first and you won’t be the last. People are attacked in this country for names, nationality, religious preference, height, weight, political opinions and race. They always have been and probably always will be. People seem to need a scapegoat for their problems and the last guy on the block or the most noticeable dissenter is usually chosen. Unfortunately for you, Chirac became quite noticeable. That’s part of why we need labor unions!
I think quite a few people are waking up to the fact that not only has our economy taken a terrific slide downhill, but that we have lost quite a few of our very hard won civil liberties. Often people don’t care until it affects them, and lately it has been affecting more and more people. I think that shows in Mr. Bush’s approval ratings which are edging downhill along with the economy.
Donerail, don’t be too sure the American people will wake up and get rid of Bush. He didn’t win the last time and he’s still president. We used to live in North Carolina and every election I swore the citizens of the state couldn’t possibly reelect Jesse Helms . . . and every election, they did. He was a total bigot, but when they came to him with a problem, he took care of it. Enough of them were also total bigots, and with that added to the people who "owed" him, he was always a shoo-in. Sad, but true.
LaVieilleBranche, according to your NY Times article, the culprits in the Iraqi prison case are a fortieth of 1% of the troops. Yes, that is terrible and shouldn’t happen, but if you put any group of 135,000 people together and found only a tenth of a percent were criminals, you would have an outstanding group of people. This is actually fewer than that. Check the number of kids in your school who are major discipline problems. I bet it is quite a bit higher than one percent. I hope people have noticed that some of the abusers were National Guard troops whose "real" job was working in prisons. I think after the Iraq problem is taken care of, we need to look at what is happening in our prisons at home.
While we’re looking for things to fuss about, I hope everyone has noticed that veterans benefits have been cut in the newest budget. Some Memorial Day present! Go out and tell them how great they are and then take away their hospitals and medical care.
With that, I’m crawling back into the Travel section where I belong. I truly dislike political discussions. No one ever convinces anyone else that they are wrong. It’s like telling someone their mother is ugly. It just won’t work because your mother is beautiful to you no matter how she looks.
Bad Oppressive Government makes strong families. Just look at the nationalities of the Families that immigrated to the US. Which ones had the closest families?
Why? I’m not exactly sure. But one might be that when the Government becomes something that doesn’t really help you, so you tend to have another type of support group that you would rather associate with more closely (i.e. the family).
To say that France does really well because of the family structure does really well may or may not be true. The Family was made to provides and protect itself, if allowed. But families also have the ability to join forces to protect their given rights (i.e. larger government).
I really haven’t studied a lot about France’s social programs, so I can’t really say a whole lot in detail. I got a book that I think talks about this called, "La Revaluation Sociale."
All of what I’m saying is not to say that there cannot be good governments that allow strong families.
Just go home betyblue, we dont need Levis when we have Diesel, we dont need GAP when we have Gaultier, Dior, Hermes, we dont EuroDisney when we have beautiful landscapes to enjoy, the quality of usa products will never compare to european products, french people speak the truth about what happens in America(incorrect name) United States I should say. Im sorry that you feel this way but its only a consequence of how things have been done in your country.
I’ll go away after this one . . .
I’ve been thinking about what bothers me and it’s the anonymity of the Internet. The Internet is not literature and shouldn’t be judged as such. It seems to be closest to a conversation and the writing is very conversational. This would not be good for an essay or paper, but for conversation, it works well.
Think about sitting in your office. Your far right wing wacko boss walks in and starts ranting. You certainly don’t agree with him, but you do want to keep your job. You manage to disagree politely and he walks out knowing you don’t agree, but not realizing you think he’s an idiot. How did you do that?
This is what we need on the forum.
Bye. We’re off to London for a week. Hope you all have fun.
AF : you’re taking the problem from the wrong angle : bad oppressive govt. didn’t produce strong families that immigrated into the US. But strong families usually come from conservative and religious countries, that tend to produce dictatorships and hard-line monarchies, especially in those days. That’s politics and sociology 1.0.1.
CRC
Okay, but why are you complaining about us boycotting you?
SalB: I know you are not comfortable in these political forums. Don’t leave them though. You add so much knowledge and common sense to the arguments. You are an excellent protagonist, so don’t leave. Donerail
Think of the most famous dictator -Stalin. Did he come from a very religious society? Think Again. That’s not to say that there is not some truth from the premise. I’m not sure, if religion has the devinitive answer to this question. Religous families do tend to be stong, but so do many non-religous families. REligioin actuially creates the only basis for rights. Under a non-repressive government the government protects the God-given rights.
Hm, I’m not sure I want to be a protagonist. I guess I am fighting for a cause though. Miss Manners and I . . .
We are leaving for London tomorrow and I will be gone for a week. I won’t even apologize for that. I’m really excited. We’ve been all over France but have never been to England at all. Do the British make wine?
Sigh . . . guess not.
All of you have a great week . . . and no name calling while I’m away.
Thank you.
AF : Stalin was a former seminarist.
CRC
It seem’s that everyone that thinks that their are no WMDs is forced to take an opinion that you all scoffed apon and held up by only the outer frenge. Namely that the whole thing was staged. For these unbelieving people this is the only thing left to think. The only alterative it seems to me is that the doubters were wrong.
Like I’ve said before they are now resorting to tuning in at late hours of the night so they can find the latest conspiracy theory to try to keep thier beleif alive. Truely wake up!
P.S. La Vielle Branche, No, my family has been here for 260 years and there are many people in Louisiana (Louisiane) who’s family has been there longer than mine and still don’t speak English as a first language.
. . . and before the Revolution, Russia was a very strongly religious country. (Russian Orthodox Church)
On of the things that defeated Communism was that the Russian people wanted their religion that had been banned by the Communist state.
Amero-Franc,
I don’t quite understand your comments about poeple that had doubts about WMD in Irak. Maybe my english is not good enough.
WMD were a pretext to justify a direct threat against the US by Irak. Without it there was no justification to invade Irak. That’s it. What kind of conspiracy are you talking about on late night shows???
Maybe you could clarify your opinion for me.
Thanks.
Jissou.
"Stalin was a former seminarist."
True, but like the regime, his theology changed.
"If there were a god, I would reach up and pull him down" -Stalin
Amero-Franc, I was wondering, why aren’t you in Irak instead of letting poor young soldiers dying and killing? We that Bush Lied about his military past and now is playing hero hiding behind the soldiers who are risking their lives.
Bonjour!!
hi! can anyone help me translate the word “BEAUTIFUL BOY” in French? Thanks. please send it to my E-mail Add: allanjerome_demesa@yahoo.com.
thanks a lot!!!
A.J.
jissou,
That is a good question. I could see how you couldn’t understand what I’m saying comming in during the conversation.
You see we have already found mustard gass and our troops have already been sprayed with Nerve gass.
The people whom I was refering to were those who after seeing all of this say <<"Ah, well, It just all staged. Doesn’t it seem funy comming up this late. Oh, by the way, I think that the flooding in France was done by Bush. You know he’s using HAARP to change the weather.">>
They are forced to just go to pure seculation without anything else. Those are the people I’m alking about.
Amero-Franc:
The reason Bush went into Iraq was WMD. That was his reason, the reasons he told the world. Every national speech was about the WMD. Have you forgotten this?
Now that he cannot find the WMD, he talks about Iraq "freedom." However, we all know that was NOT the reason he went into Iraq. Reread my previous posts about Iraq. OIL was one of the reasons, controlling the oil fields. Settling an old score against Sadaam who had bruised the Bush collective ego.
Bush has NO right to talk about "freedom" with his Homeland Security Act and Patriot Act on the books here in the USA. Bush does NOT speak FLUENT Spanish, not at all! saying thank you in Spanish or how are you? in Spanish is a long way from fluency. Bush never even went out of the USA until he became president. He never even visited Canada or Mexico until he was president. Now he wants to tell the entire world what to do. Typical white American male ego, bossing everybody around while knowing nothing himself…
For the record, I’ve seen YOUR French, it’s TERRIBLE. I would NEVER call you fluent, not by a long shot. I would hope you don’t think of yourself as fluent in French, either.
Read SalB’s previous posts. That mustard gas they found is a small quantity and is NOT usable. If it was usable, you’d hear about it non-stop in the major American news media.
Sadaam never posed any threat to the USA. That is a fact. All the neoconservatives would like to paint him as a big weapon of American terrorism, but in fact, he was just an annoyance in the Bush family pride because he bruised the Bush family ego.
As long as the American administration in Washington takes sides in Palestine-Israel affairs, as long as the government supports whatever Israel does to the Palestinians, then there will be a constant fight against Arab guerilla fighters against American interests here in the USA and abroad.
The people whom I was refering to were those who after seeing all of this say <<"Ah, well, It just all staged. DOesn’t it seem funy comming up this late. Oh, by the way, I think that flooding in France way done by Bush. You know he’s using HAARP to change the weather.">>
Amero-Franc, stop speculating and inventing words that people never said. Stop quoting things as fact when it is obvious you make them up.
This is why people think you’re stupid.
Amero-Franc:
There is no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing and stockpiling chemical weapons, or whether Iraq has — or will — establish its chemical warfare agent production facilities.
- Defense Intelligence Agency report, September 2002 (summary obtained by Bloomberg News)
"CBS News has learned that barely five hours after American Airlines Flight 77 plowed into the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld was telling his aides to come up with plans for striking Iraq–even though there was no evidence linking Saddam Hussein to the attacks."
- CBS News, September 4, 2002
BUSH LIES:
But for those who say we haven’t found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they’re wrong, we found them.
- George W. Bush, May 30, 2003
We’ve also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical and biological weapons across broad areas. We are concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using UAVs for missions targeting the United States.
- George W. Bush, October 7, 2002
If he declares he has none, then we will know that Saddam Hussein is once again misleading the world.
- Ari Fleischer, December 2, 2002
My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources. These are not assertions. What we’re giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence.
- Colin Powell at UN, February 5, 2003
Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.
- George W. Bush, March 17, 2003
I could go on and on with quotes that prove Iraq didn’t have the WMD and quotes showing the lies of the Bush administration.
Consider the case of the production of contracts for a presumed Iraqi purchase of enriched uranium from Niger. This was a crude lie. All false. The information was provided to the International Atomic Energy Agency by the U.S. intelligence services.
- Hans Blix, head of UN weapons inspections, El Pais interview, April 9, 2003
However, I like this quote the best:
For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction, because it was the one reason everyone could agree on.
- Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, Vanity Fair, July 2003
The Bush administration is built on lies. The death, the destruction in Iraq is a disgrace. Now that the truth is coming out, no WMD, NOW they push Iraqi "freedom". Maybe some Americans are gullible enough to believe Bush lies. The old adage, "tell a lie often enough, and everybody will believe it," is certainly apparant in the USA.
Anybody who believes this war was about "freedom" is stupid.
LaVieilleBranche,
Really nice to see the energy you have. You seem to believe that you will change Amero-Franco who, by the way does not answer the question why he is not in Irak fighting if he supports Bush.
LaVieilleBranche please do not let nobody trying to take away your belief that the world will change. Bush represents, unfortunately, the straw that broke the camel’s back. Unfortunately I believe that his psychopathic tendency, lack of respect for human life (even when it is the life of american youth), cowardice, and, when you look at his eyes, an absolute lack of intelligence, put the world on a path of no return. War for the years to come. Billions of dollars spent in weapons of destructions while a huge part of the world has an average life expectancy of 40 to 50 years. While pharmaceutical companies, are making money by selling HIV medication to Africa at the same price it is sold in the US. Do you know that since he was elected as president hundred of thousands of children died for lack of medication and malnutrition around the world? Do you know that one evening, with his favourite guests (lol) costs enough money to build 100 water fountains in sub sahara Africa? Do you know that he has 24/7 a team of medical expert surrounding him while the average american cannot afford to pay for,a badly needed medical treatment.
All that to say that it is not hard to find evil. Find Bush, look at him in the eyes, and you will it.
Au revoir LaVieilleBranche.
…
"stop speculating and inventing words that people never said. Stop quoting things as fact when it is obvious you make them up."
LaVieilleBranche,
I’m sorry. There seems to be a misunderstanding between our two cultures. You see; I was being satirical. You see in America we use that type of satire. Just because we put something in quotation marks doesn’t necessarily mean that it was a quote from an actual person. A lot of times our humor is a bit more abstract. I do realize I was using the French quotation marks. I think that is why in Britain a lot of times they call them inverted commas instead of commas.
Anyway besides all the clichés you did bring up a good point about this not just being about the WMDs. This is true and quite frankly as I have been saying before. It’s not just about that and it’s not about the Iraqi freedom specifically anyway.
Let me put this in the form of an example: "In WWII the America was bombed by the Japanese in Pearl harbor. Unless you can find Japanese solder that was in Germany, we shouldn’t have saved the French from Hitler. Hey after all, everyone knows that the reason America wanted to go to Europe was to steal all that German Beer" (Notice I’m putting it in quotation marks not because it is a quote from a source, but to show that it’s really outside my train of thought)
Come on even Clinton is with Bush on this as far as their being WMDs. He said that in his new book it talks about how he almost got all of them, but some how they got away. I thought all you guys in Europe loved Clinton.
Amero-Franc:
1) I AM American, (born in northern NJ) and in proper English, quotation marks are to specifically QUOTE something. They are not there to surround made-up remarks that please your fancy. In most of the major world languages, quotation marks have the same purpose. So, use them correctly. Using them incorrectly and admitting to it is one of the reasons people here think you’re very stupid.
You said, "Let me put this in the form of an example: "In WWII the America was bombed by the Japanese in Pearl harbor. Unless you can find Japanese solder that was in Germany, we shouldn’t have saved the French from Hitler. Hey after all, everyone knows that the reason America wanted to go to Europe was to steal all that German Beer" (Notice I’m putting it in quotation marks not because it is a quote from a source, but to show that it’s really outside my train of thought)" <—-this is outside the entire WORLD’S train of thought…i rest my case. you ARE a blithering idiot.
Take DrEska’s advice. Go to Iraq. Now take my advice and get lost there.
DrEska:
I don’t see evil in George Bush’s eyes. I wouldn’t characterize him as an evil man. Hitler was an evil man. Stalin was evil. Bush however, is very self-absorbed. I see him as a man who feels he can do or say what he wants to anybody in the world. If they happen to disagree with him, then he throws a temper tantrum and vows some sort of revenge, whether it be military or economic (an economic example would be French boycotts). I see Bush as protecting his own economic interests as regards to oil. He would trash the natural beauty of America for oil profits for his associates. One day, when he’s no longer president, he will need a job and the oil and energy industry would love to hire an ex-president with old oil connections.
As i would say, Bush is a legend in his own mind.
All politicians in the USA get health benefits that the average citizen can only dream about. If all those politicans in Washington DC had to live with Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield as I do, then a comprehensive national health plan would be available for all.
Please don’t get me started on the pharmacutical industry in the USA or else I’ll never be quiet. I’ve brought in many medicines in quantity for my personal use on all my trips to France because the quality is first class and the price is cheap, cheap. So don’t get me started on that.
anyways, it’s nice to see you again in the forums
Amero-Franc:
let me put this in a way you can understand.
Americans were lied to about the Iraq war. Bush lied about WMD so he could have an excuse to bomb Iraq. I posted Bush quotes in which he outright LIED to the American people and to the world.
His REAL reasons (the reasons he would NEVER admit to) for this unholy war? oil, profits for his associates at Haliburton and Bechtel, and to settle an old grude with Sadaam because Sadaam had bruised the Bush family ego.
Sadaam was NEVER a threat to the USA. The blood of every dead man, woman and child in Iraq is on his hands, no matter what their nationality. It is BUSH who started this war. When the Iraq mess is finally over, it is my opinion that history will be very very UNKIND to George Bush.
Amero-Franc: Your pal George Bush just helped me set a record at the gas pump. $38 for the tank. If his Iraqui blunder was aimed at keeping the price of oil down, I could understand (but still not agree) with his investment of lives and dollars on the initiative. It has been a total waste. A total fiasco beyond the scale of Iran-Contra. We would have been better off if he put the money in our education system so that grammatically challenged individuals like yourself could get some help.
LaVieilleBranch: It should not be a surprise that Bush isn’t fluent in Spanish. He is not even fluent in English. I tend to agree with Dr. Eska, Bush may not fit the techinical definition of being evil, but he is certainly very close to it. We have to do our best to help amero-franc with his education – before SalB comes back. Donerail
donerail: don’t get me started about gas prices! I filled my tank today. It cost me $19.50 at the pump, at $1.99/gallon. Last year it cost me $13 for a tank full of gas. Granted, I drive a fuel efficient small American car, but the big reason i have this car is fuel efficiency and low price. It seems that the high gas price is making my choice of a small car null and void.
Bush’s oil buddies must be reveling in all the profits they are raking in from the American people.
I wasn’t suprised that Bush only speaks English because I’ve known this for years. It just proves our point about Bush
You won’t ever change Amero-Franc’s opinion. The scary part is that millions of young Americans all think exactly as Amero-Franc. What will become of our (once great) country when the Amero-Francs of this world take over the reins of leadership?
"I don’t see evil in George Bush’s eyes. I wouldn’t characterize him as an evil man. Hitler was an evil man. Stalin was evil. Bush however, is very self-absorbed. I see him as a man who feels he can do or say what he wants to anybody in the world."
The caricature that you paint seems to be a lot like Napoleon. Hey, Napoleon was hated by most of the world. He was selfish. He had a lot of Imperialistic whims and he is now revered as the greatest hero and reformer in France.
The only problem is that Bush doesn’t have a whimsical taste for women. Of course Clinton did, but he was liked to much by Europe.
So, how many of you think that Bush is going to be America’s Napoleon?
I don’t think he has that much of a lust of power, but if you think so…
LaVieilleBranch,
Just because Bush doesn’t speak Castilian Spanish doesn’t mean he doesn’t speak spanish. He speaks Mexican Spanish. It’s not just called Mexican. It’s still a type of Spanish.
Amero-Franc:
There is one difference between Napoleon and Bush. When all is said and done, American history will judge George Bush in a rather negative light .
Not all French love Napoleon. They know his faults. Unlike Americans and Bush….
I never said Castillian Spanish. I said Spanish. And no, Bush isn’t Fluent in Mexican Spanish, Castillian Spanish or any other dialect of anything other than English. Studying Spanish in school and being able to say a few words when called upon is NOT fluency.
Fluency means being able to converse in Spanish with any Spanish speaking person. Being able to understand, speak and read Spanish as a Spaniard would. This requires, time, effort and STUDY, something Bush didn’t do when he was in school.
So which is it; will americans see Bush in a negitive light or will they not know his faults?
They can’t both be true.
No Bush speaks Spanish:
"I was listening the other day to Governor Bush speak fluent Spanish to Hispanic voters…"
-Richard Rodriguez of the Pacific News Service
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/essays/may00/rodriguez_5-9.html
P.S. Again most American and Mexican Hispanics are not Spaniards.
Amero-Franc: go back and read my previous post to you. I already SAID what i think about American history and George Bush.
You read posts carelessly. No wonder people here think you’re stupid.
I looked at other web sites. So George Bush really does speak Spanish…amazing! I didn’t think a brain of his slow speed could be bilingual.
Bush should now learn French and maybe he’d be less hostile to France. A little refinement and high culture could do that stupid Texan some good.
"Bush should now learn French and maybe he’d be less hostile to France"
LaVieilleBranche, Yes, and If he spoke German he would be more friendly to the Germans and Italian, the Italians and Japanese, Japanese. I don’t follow you. Are you saying that we souldn’t be given the choice and that the only foreign language in American schools should be French?
Also about my question of Napoleon; I am only trying to understand what you think. It’s as if you’re made of Jello. I’m trying to understand you and can’t get a responce. Please what do you think:
Will americans see Bush in a negitive light or will they not know his faults?
As I said, they can’t both be true.
Hello, folks,
My name is Luther, and I am an American visitor to this fine country. Well I call myself an American, but really I am from California! Yay! I have come to France to study the language and culture, to explore my family roots, and to test for myself just what the American and the French peoples have in common, and what divides them. Thus far, I can report that I have been treated with respect and kindness by the vast majority of the people I have met.
Of course we have our differences – hell – vive la difference, right? But I consider the French to be our genuine best friend in the world – the kind of friend who does their best to keep their pals out of trouble. NOT like the sycophant U.K. This boycott business is juvenile and entirely without merit.
I share wholeheartedly the pervasive and profound criticism of the Bush cabal I find here amongst the general population, and I find the average French citizen to be vastly better educated and informed than my own compatriots, who are caught in a sticky web of comfort and propaganda. Unfortunately, the lessons of September 11 and March 11 have been lost on them, and STILL almost half the American population supports the corporate-puppet gang of pseudo-religious crusaders.
It is a damn shame, and I am here to tell you. And them.
Well Luther, you are the King and if I may have a dream, it is to see more americans think like you as it is really this kind of thinking that made the US a great and loved Country.
Please stick around we need you
Regards
Stefane
Again and again I hear -"When you were in France were the French Rude to you?"
That’s as asinine as saying "when you were last in Illinois, were they all rude there?"
I am fifty one years old, and have a terminal illness. I said to my husband-"I want to see Paris", so we went. We were polite and courteous to our hosts and so were the French polite and courteous back. What is the big deal, and why are people so convinced that the French are "rude"?
I happen to believe that they were right when they decided not to help with troops in Iraq. Their young men are not being killed by senseless violence ( not acts of war, but stupid traps and mines and suicide bombings). We in the US,and our media, arrogantly, I believe, think that we can impose a way of life on a people because it works for us–another topic completely–we ignore the historical context of the Iraqi situation and plow right in to FIX IT.
It is time that we bowed right out and allowed the good people of Iraq to look at their own situation with their own eyes, and , if they want more help- ask for it. We have never been stingy with help, but now they need help to live, not die, build, not blow up.
As for French fries, how stupid. Another media ploy to shift the focus off the real issue and onto something trivial.
Hi Docsjm,
I rarely participate in this forum. I do when I read something as beautiful as what Yoou, Luther, Donerail or LaVielleBranche write. I remember a sign on an old church lost somewhere in the country side of Pennsylvania. The sign read "Love your ennemies like yourself. After all, you created them". Somme food for thoughts.
Thank you for helpin open our eyes Docsjm and my prayers are with you.
DrEska
Amero-Franc:
You really do NOT read posts carefully! Did I say anything about school?
Go back and re-read what i said EXACTLY, if you’re capable…
And YES, the first step towards understanding another culture is to learn to speak some of their language. I thought you would of known this. I was wrong. How silly to presume that you’d know anything.
Scroll back and re-read what i wrote about Bush. It’s YOU who brought up Napoleon, not me. Read exactly what I said, and try not to assume something from what i wrote that isn’t there. The scroll button on the browser is the little thing on the right hand side of the page. you CAN find the scroll button, can’t you?
docsjm:
welcome to the forums!
The reason Americans think the French are so rude is because the Americans are rude FIRST to the French. I’ve seen this many times. The Americans say or do something very arrogant and expect that this behavior will be tolerated. I myself had this happen to me. A group of older Americans was touring Versailles Palace and were rather rude to me. They assumed I was French born ( I know this, I heard the things they said). When I replied back in English, they said, "Sorry, we thought you were French." Those were their exact words. After this they were much nicer to me. I’ve had this happen on more than one occasion.
If Americans tried to be nice to the French, learn how to speak a few words of French, it would then be a different situation.
I have to say that the education have to be done both ways. I met some of my friends that would put all americans in one basket.
"Those crazy americans think they can dominate the world…"
I always remind them that not everybody was for the war and that a lot of poeple in the US don’t feel good about what’s happening in Irak. In any case I don’t think they would be rude to a tourist because of that.
The culture is somewhat different but poeple are poeple.
I think I will start a new thread about culture differences…It could be quite interesting.
Jissou
jissou:
a belated welcome to the forums!
It’s a good idea to start a thread about cultural differences. It would make for a lively debate
LaVieilleBranche,
I know that I brought up the isue of Napoleon and Bush. I for one don’t think it is a good comparison either, but for different reasons.
I was trying to find out your reasons. You gave two thank contradicted themselves. I’m wandering which you believe:
Will americans see Bush in a negitive light or will they not know his faults?
Again they both cannot be true.
Amero-Franc:
If you thought comparing Bush to Napoleon wasn’t so good, then you shouldn’t have made that comparison. This is another example of why people think you’re a simpleton.
Your Bush question is redundant. As I said, re-read my post. have you re-read it? The answer is there.
docssjm, luther, jissou welcome to the forums. Your posts are most welcome and insightfull. When I read luther’s post, i had to check to see if it was not one of my own. And it is good to see that Dr. Eska is here as well. We have had a frustrating and challenging time with the education of amero-franc. LaVieilleBranch has the patience of Job. Donerail
LaVieilleBranche,
Because I was wanting to know what you thought. I already know what I think. If my question was too complicated for you just tell me.
Hey, Name calling dean’t keep you anywhere. Even if it’s put in absalute way.
amero-franc: LaVieilleBranche has tried so hard with you. It is sad to see you regressing yet again. Babbling gibberish. Donerail
Tried so hard with what?
If she’s trying to win me over she’s going about it the wrong way. You don’t do that by calling people names.
Anyway, I’m just wanting to know what she thinks. I gave no onpinion in that question. I just want to know what she thinks about Bush.
Is that question to sensitive?
Amero-franc: I meant that it appeared LaVielleBranche was trying very hard to educate you. With regard to what she might thing about Bush, I presume it would be similar to most thinking Americans. Bush is a fairly dull, right wing idiot. Donerail
Amero-Franc: First you ask me how I plan to vote in the upcoming elections, now you ask me for my opinion on Bush. Is this a veiled attempt to discover how I plan to vote in the November elections? I think so…
Amero-Franc: Until you start discussing things in an educated, intellegent way, then I see no reason to reply to you. Consider this your last reply.
donerail,
"…I presume it would be similar to most thinking Americans. Bush is a fairly dull, right wing idiot…"
Wow…
Now you try to win me over by bashing my fellow countrymen.
I just have one quetsion: Are you and LaVieilleBranche lodge-brothers or something?
LaVieilleBranche,
I was only asking you an educated cordial question of the perception of Bush. You talk about how Bush is hated by the rest of the world and how everyone in the u.S. loves him. And how they just love him and are brainwashed. You talk about how selfish he is. According to you I thought the comparison was good.
The only problem was that you kept on talking about how he couldn’t possibly get reelected.
Which is true?.
And…,
According to you will Americans see Bush in a negative light or will they not know his faults.
If it’s too complicated tell me, but it’s certainly not too personal. That is unless your related to George Bush or Napoleon.
I swore I wouldn’t get involved in this thread again, but I must say that "everyone in the US" doesn’t love Bush. I don’t; my family doesn’t, and no one I know loves Bush . . . even my somewhat rightwing late-night radio listening mother seriously questions most of his decisions! Furthermore, if anyone has looked at the polls lately, Mr. Bush’s ratings are slowly and steadily sinking.
Of course, "There’s many a slip ‘twixt the cup and the lip . . . "
It should be an interesting election.
Anyone not observing what is happening in the worls is blind or in denial. The whole world including the american is saying enough to lies and manipulation. People are stronger than governments.
Poor Blair he was hoping that England would beat France in Soccer and make the British forget about how cheaply he sold the british flag to Bush. England lost, as he will loos in the coming elections.
In any case, those who are, here and every where else, supporting the war should enrole in the army and go to Irak. But some prefer to send poor young men and women to defend. Defend what? nothing lol. Just Bush’s lies
Any way I could not resist. I am just answering because I don’t want LaVielleBranche and Donerail to be the only one to try to defend the truth.
SalB: I never said that "all Americans love Bush." This is just Amero-Franc exaggerating/taking out of context words that I or somebody else says. You know how Amero-Franc is….
Yes, this should be quite an interesting election!
LaVieilleBranche,
I never said that you said, ‘all Americans love Bush’. I used the pronoun "they". Earlier you were talking about how the American young people are saduced by Bush.
You are either:
1. contraticting yourself (because you think that Bush isn’t going to win in the fall.
2. thinking that only the old people will get out to vote. (which is partially true)
3. thinking that there are more older people than there are young people.
Again, I’m not trying to argue with you. I am not exaggerating or taking anything you said out of context. I’m just trying to understand you. What do you think will be America’s reaction to Bush in the fall. and…
According to you will Americans see Bush in a negative light or will they not know his faults.
I am not using any of your words in that question, so there’s no way I am taking them out of context.
Amero-Franc, You actually did say that all Americans love Bush. Here are your words that I copied and pasted into this reply (and I quote) "LaVieilleBranche, I was only asking you an educated cordial question of the perception of Bush. You talk about how Bush is hated by the rest of the world and how everyone in the u.S. loves him." (Amero-Franc, you can scroll down and see your own words that I have simply copied in quotation marks here.)
The pertinent part is "everyone in the u.S. (sic) loves him."
So, in fact, Amero-Franc did say that LaVieilleBranche said all Americans, i.e. everyone in the US, loves Bush. The word "everyone" is not the same as the word "they" which he is claiming in the above post. They is a rather ephemeral term.
I honestly tried to go back and read this thread to gain some understanding of where the argument is going. It is impossible. If, in fact, LaVieilleBranche ever did suggest that all Americans love Bush, I couldn’t find those words in the posts I struggled through.
I realize Amero-Franc is trying to get LaVieilleBranche’s opinion as to how Americans will see Bush in the fall at election time. I’m sure she has an opinion, but it is just that, an opinion, because no one can possibly know how the election will go. I suspect many of us here are strongly wishing Mr. Bush will not win the election and certainly, the latest news and polls support that wish. I also know many things can change between now and November and I also know that, whether or not we wish to admit it, elections can be manipulated.
In other words, what we may wish and what may be logical may not be what happens. Past evidence supports the belief that older voters will go to the polls in larger numbers than young voters. I suspect there are more registered older voters than younger ones and I wouldn’t be too surprised if, counting only people of voting age, there were more older than younger people.
I think this thread would be easier to follow if people would stick to the argument and not insert the derogatory remarks that are not only offensive to the person on the receiving end, but make the thread extremely difficult to follow. When people take the time to reply to unkind comments, it interrupts the thread of the argument . . . in addition to offending them. When people call you a simpleton or an idiot, you are not likely to defend your remarks in an unemotional manner. Further, when one is hot under the collar, it is difficult to think and/or type straight. The disagreement, in fact, is what makes the argument. If we all agreed on everything, where would lie the fun?!
Only a moron like bety blue would post the same quotes over and over, that’s even worst.
"you revert to below the belt personal attacks, childish, I expect that is because you can’t share your view without insulting others"
Please I dont mean to insult but dont post the same thing over and over. Give me some substance.
And when it comes to The Boss, do we really care how much you make? That’s out of scope
Only a moron like bety blue would post the same quotes over and over, that’s even worst.
"you revert to below the belt personal attacks, childish, I expect that is because you can’t share your view without insulting others"
Please I dont mean to insult but dont post the same thing over and over. Give me some substance.
And when it comes to The Boss, do we really care how much you make? That’s out of scope
The Boss you should know which TIME magazine but its the newest edition Im sure 12 grand can buy a magazine
As a French-American, I feel betrayed by all the political posturing against the French. I voted for Bush but will NOT vote for him again after everything he has done and said. French-Americans have a voice, we remember and we VOTE!!
As for boycotting, you’d be suprised how many businesses in my region stock French products when I tell them that area French-Americans will ALWAYS boycott their shops in the future if they participate in this silly boycott.
French-Americans won’t forget the slander for a LONG time.
Hey bossman you wrote:
I have read all of your posts and quite honestly find you not worth the effort it takes to further correspond. So, you can have the last word. Take your best shot and make it a good one as others are reading this also.
OK – since you are obviously a good republican and are accustomed to resigning……see ya later dude….and don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
Your hatred of the French illustrates the mean spirited hatred that infests America today. YOU WILL NOT WIN. Love always overcomes hatred.
LesInOKC,
About the electoral collage, eather you’re misinformed or you just wrote it unclearly. I’m not sure, but each state doesn’t only get 2 votes. They automatically get 2 added to the number relative to the population. As I have said before California got 48 and Alaska got 3. They didn’t all get two. In fact it’s imposable for any state to get just two because they always get 1 population vote no matter what. Even if I were a Gore supporter I still would think ahead, because the same thing might work in favor some day. That’s why we are not a Democracy, because pure Democracies lead to pure Dictatorships. Pure Democracy is what allows the larger groups to say that they don’t need the smaller group anymore. Usually they latter set up some kind of Dictatorship.
Also about you saying that Europeans don’t like to come to rural vacations here in America, I really don’t think you know what you’re talking about. I myself work for the tourism industry in a rural area. To be specific I’m a tour guide. We get a lot of people from Europe: From Brittian, France, Norway, Germany, and Italy. Europe is probably our #1 tourist field, besides people from just out-of-state.
Also the State that I live in has a Government organization specifically to keep and protect old buildings and monuments, so we don’t just tear the old things down. True, most of our buildings are not as old as what you have in Europe. What I mean by "most" is that we do have quite a bit of Indian mounds they’re supposedly over 2000 years old.
I would encourage Europeans to visit to this area and yes it is charming. If you don’t like the cultural activities there are all sorts of outdoor activities that you probably might not have back home.
The people are not unfriendly to outsiders and most care more about local politics unless it has to do them.
Fedaykin,
You’ve changed my mind a little bit on this subject. I used to think that the French were just dragging their feet, but now I see your point. They have a bomb ready to go off and don’t want to start up a war in their own country. We’re out there trying to get them to go on a humanitarian crusade and they still have the Battle of Tours to fight.
I’m really terribly sorry to those Frenchmen who I might have offended. Why didn’t you all just tell us why and we’d probably understand. I know it kind of makes you look week to say it’s because you just don’t have the ability. It looks nobler to say you’re not going, on principle, and butter it all over, but we’re friends we can understand. We wouldnt take advantage of you or anything.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
Amero-Franc
You are correct about the Electoral College. I did some research on the subject yesterday. The fact remains that Gore got 500,000 more votes than Bush did in the 2000 election. In other words…….MOST AMERICANS WANTED GORE TO BE THEIR PRESIDENT. People can rationalize all day long how Bush won the election……but the popular VOTE numbers don’t lie. I refuse to accept the fact that, in America, the person with the least amounts of votes…….WINS. We are supposed to set an example to the rest of the world. We are supposed to be a shining example of democracy in action. We just showed the world that our system is just as corrupt and flawed as theirs is.
According to our state tourism department, Oklahoma receives less than 2000 visitors a year from other countries. Oklahoma didn’t become a state until 1907 and before that we were just flat plains inhabited with buffalo. Indian burial grounds are a far cry from the Roman coliseum, the Pantheon or Big Ben. It’s just a mound of dirt and Europeans won’t come to our state to see one. Our state also attempts to preserve our old buildings…… all 3 of em. Like Texas, Oklahoma is a hick state populated by brain dead rednecks. These people wouldn’t know a bagel from a croissant. Most of them voted for Bush.
LesinOKC:
I couldn’t agree with you more, but this is the land of the free, advocated abroad as so, where human rights are respected, where democracy is at its best. Sadly, its the country of the backwards rednecks, born again christians, the puritains, narrow minded reactive americans. Theyw ay I see it, cancer has invaded this country and slowly but surely it might bring it down, there is so much hate, I haven’t seen anythng like it, and it all has developed in the past 2 years and 10 months or something like that.
Rush Limbaugh just admited today that he is addicted to pain pills and has been thru rehab TWICE. He will be going inot rehab for the third time soon.
EuropeanUnion – this guy was the head chearleader for all those hate filled war mongering Americans you mentioned. THERE IS A GOD AFTER ALL!!!! ROFL.
EuropeanUnion2003,
You said, "there is so much hate" but in the same paragraph you used hateful name-calling-words such as "rednecks." You may have meant it as an insult, but the reason why they’re called rednecks was because some coal miners in West Virginia (very rural state) took up arms against their oppressors. They were forces to take fake money that was only used in the company store. Whenever any of them tried to move away in tents from their rented housing or even try to go on strike, they were sprayed with bullets. Many people were killed including women and children. They then took up arms and wore red bandannas around their necks, trying to impersonate the French revaluation. You should be flattered. Ever wandered why they like to wear red bandannas on their head. If you’re interested it’s called the Battle of Blair Mountain.
Also I don’t consider being called a born again Christian an insult. I consider myself as one. It is truly the only way, to be born again; otherwise you couldn’t really be a Christian for that is how He said it is to be done. Being born again means that you make a conscious decision yourself as opposed to having it automatically attached, as if it is just part of your culture. It’s true you should make it apart of your culture, but it should be above and beyond what any culture or pubic opinion says. It’s not just something that we made up in the US. In fact I know of some that live right in Normandy where you live.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
EU,
Nah, it doesn’t go as far as it used to.
theboss
I thought you were going to leave.
So much for your character.
Liberatore,
I’m sorry that you got the impression I was putting down Les because of his income. If you read back in the thread I make the remark that a person’s circumstances have no bearing in these posts, only the truth gives a person credence. My original post was one of education as to our election system, and that over generalizations are rather silly. I should have put a happy face after the hats question I suppose. If you read his reply, you will find it full or errors as to our history, and I have suddenly become stupid (dunce hat) and an Ugly American. Wow.
Both remarks required a response and I gave them. You may not like the form I used, but it did prove my point. Actually I should have waited for his post that everyone in Oklahoma is a brain dead redneck. He does live there doesn’t he.
Let me ask you a question..If you go to a restaurant and receive rude treatment from the employees or the food is no good, do you go back?
Probably not. Does that make you vulgar and childish, no. You simply want decent service and good food so you go somewhere else.
You said that the French can be rude, so why are you castigating me for what you admit? Nowhere did I say that I hate the French people. How can you hate people that you don’t even know? I just don’t like rude treatment by anyone. Example..my wife bought a Lladro figurine at one of the stores and the salesclerk asked her co-worker how to wrap it. The co-worker replied "It doesn’t matter because the stupid American wouldn’t know the difference." What the clerks didn’t know was that a friend travelling with us spoke fluent French. Needless to say there was quite a scene made by our friend. Was she now an Ugly American for complaining to the management?
I shouldn’t have said that I’ll never come back because I will. The south of France is on of my favorite places and I intend to revisit the area when I have more time to spend. I hope to trade houses with another family, that way we will have a base to travel from. I will probably wait until retirement (4 years) because I can’t leave my company for any length of time as of yet. Twenty seven years of contracting (electrical) and still work 70 hours a week.
LesInOKC,
I have a question for you. If you’re so worried about the will of the polulation, the UN has a really great program doesn’t it. 1 Delagate for each country no mater what the population or goodwill.
Amero-Franc
Yes the UN does delegate power properly. One vote for each country. No country with more power than the others. If you want to give countries more power due to the size of it’s population…….China would be ruling the UN.
the boss
:0 Im sure it doesnt that’s why you have to steal from Irak.
Les..you’ve just proven once again why I must repeat myself. My statement doesn’t condone nor approve of illegal aliens. I will explain it to you if you would like. Is it possible for you to contribute to this forum with out insulting or putting down others? Your statements would have more strength and might be taken seriously.
LesInOKC, (Replying to your comment about the UN)
Then you disagree about the Electoral Collage because it should be equal just like in the UN so that California doesn’t take over the United States like China might take over the UN; I really don’t understand what you’re saying.
Now, I think you’re going too far the other way. I think the polulation needs some say. It just should be controled a bit, so that we don’t have centralistic mob rule.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
Amero-Franc
Comparing the UN to the Electoral College is like comparing apples to oranges. A large part of the UN is made up of non-democratic nations. Many don’t uphold democratic principles to begin with. Secondly, money and power are currently the deciding factors on who has power in the UN, not population. You can see how this is reflected in the countries represented in the Security Council. Thirdly, I see the UN as a form of "world senate". In our senate there are two representatives from each state despite the populations of those states. In the UN there is one representative from each country. I consider it to be a GOOD thing that Cubas UN general assembly vote is equal to that of the US general assembly vote. The world is made up of countries whose representatives are sent to the UN via their own particular form of government. In this manner each country can maintain their own style of government while at the same time be represented in the UN democratically. The Electoral College is simply a tool to tally up votes. It has nothing to do with how a country rules itself.
Betyblue
In your statement you said that you admired the people who came to America for a better life. I have no problem with that. I agree with you. But you also included illegal immigrants in your list. If you admire illegal immigrants for coming to America and obtaining their freedom here, then you overlook the fact that they are breaking the law to get here. I do not. I believe that people crossing our boarders illegally should be shot on sight, or arrested whenever possible. I thought that you were against terrorism? Terrorists can enter our country every day crossing the US/Mexican border. What is it about ILLEGAL that you do not understand?
If you do not like the way I conduct myself at this forum, may I suggest that you leave. The only person that I have to answer to at this forum is the forum administrator..and you, my dear..are certainly not them. Maybe its time that you reconsider your participation here when all you seem to be able to talk about is the way people act. This is not high school. The world isn’t fair.. deal with it.
Les- let’s re-read my statement so I can clairify for you yet again:
"… and lastly and most obvious don’t forget the millions and millions of foreigners in the U.S. who have obtained a Green Card or citizinship or who are in the U.S. illegally beacuse they want to be, they have done nothing but show up and start a life in the U.S because they want to. You don’t have to "do anything" to be afforded the luxories America has to offer."
No where in here does it say I "condone" illegal aliens, nor have I over looked any facts. I was simply saying that you do not have to do any of the things you mentioned to be afforded the privilidges and freedomes that come with living in America. Please read carefully and try not to put your own spin on things just so you can slam back at an opinion that was never there to begin with.
And, no, I am not going to leave this forum just because you don’t like what I have to say. You claim to be so open minded because you have left Oaklahoma and traveled abroad, bravo, I know plenty of Americans who could use some multi-cultural insight to broaden their minds…. why don’t you exercise some of that invaluable insight right here.
LesinOKC
That’s where I disagree with you, you are taking France’s side on this issue but then you tell betyblue illegal immigrants should be SHOT?? that is very very disturbing, and in france there is no place for people like that. We believe in human rights above everything, I might not agree with betyblue on some issues, I do apologize to you bety or anybody else if I may seem rude but I speak from what I have to live through.
EU,
Yep that’s me, the guy with grey hair and glasses that you see every night on your television stealing all the good stuff in Iraq.
I’m not any more hatefull to you than you are of the French. And I’m this way in person as well. I just don’t take a lot of BS from people who don’t know what the hell they are talking about. Come back anytime……..I’ll be your huckleberry.
LesInOKC;
Again this is really way off the subject, but I guess we are beyond that anyway.
About the electoral collage; first of all, think about what you just said. You argued that is was because of convenience that the idea was made. If it was just for convenience, why couldnt each state just come up with the actual popular number and then put that one number in someones pocket. Then each rider can take that popular number to Washington. Then they add up for the popular vote.
Secondly, if you read the proceedings that Madison wrote down, it had absolutely nothing to do with connivance. It had to do with the smaller states like New Jersey (It was smaller at the time.) that didnt want another tyranny like they had during British rule. You are, however, wrong when you say that smaller states carry more weight. Smallest State: Alaska=3 Largest State: California=48. You see it doesnt make them more powerful it is only used as a buffer. That way no minority gets obliterated and no one can get less than 3.
Also about you comparing our rural class to Europeans dressing up like knights, you are comparing apples and oranges. You are comparing a social class to a culture. However, if you go to Europe you will notice that they do have a very distinct rural class that do hold to their old customs and dress. In Germany they have been so un-included in their culture that for most purposes they even have their own language. Of course in France they have the Acadamie Française, but if you notice in their last election there was two completely different cultural views. Ever wander why France is so prone to revolution?
Please quit looking down on someone just because they a cowboy hat or John Deer cap. You said, They live in an imaginary& word. Well, do you think your food is imaginary? Is wearing your cotton shirt or your denim jeans imaginary? You might think that you live in the part of the country that makes all the rules, statements and products, but you are only being fed with the tools that the rural class gives you.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
Amero-franc
I see where you are coming from with the concept of taking the actual popular vote via horseback to Washington. However this was not the way it was done. Each state got two electoral votes no matter how may people were in a particular state. In the Electoral College California gets just as many Electoral College votes as Alaska does. If one candidate wins the popular vote in a state by just ONE vote….they got BOTH electoral college votes from that state. This is why Gore got more popular votes than Bush, yet he lost the election. It’s as if the people who voted for Gore in Florida weren’t even counted. I just don’t like the idea of a person who gets the least amount of votes……WINS. It’s not democratic and it’s not what democracy is all about….In my humble opinion. I believe this is what EU meant by saying that America isn’t a true democracy. In many ways…….he is right.
About the rural class. I live in the Bible Belt. I am surrounded by a bunch of fundamentalist Christian rural Cowboys. All the newspapers and television stations here are fundamentalist Christian and Cowboy biased. If you openly express any religion other than Christian, or express a worldly attitude….you are attacked and in some cases (as with people of the Muslim faith)….killed. Entertainment here consists of going to movies, tractor pulls and rodeos. I can understand how some Europeans might find this kind of charming…..much as I find much of the European rural culture charming……but in this state we do not have the tourist volume they have in Europe. People from other countries are not coming here to be "entertained" by our rural culture. Maybe you can now understand why I hate cowboys so much. I used to be one…..and then I saw what the rest of the world had to offer. Oklahoma doesn’t have half the class or culture that Europeans have. Nothing here is over 100 years old. We destroy everything that is old and replace it with "new and improved". In Europe I stay in B&B’s that are older than America.
Does this piss me off? It sure does. Why don’t I move? I was born and have roots here and nothing is ever solved by running away. Our trips to Europe have opened our eyes to the rest of the world and shown me how insignificant my hick world really is. It has also shown me that we must get along with the rest of the world or the rest of the world will destroy us.
theboss,
So you make 12 grand a month… Big deal! That gives you the right to put people down because they make less then you? Nice going!!!
That is exactly how one would believe an Ugly American would think: vulgar and childish. I’m glad you’re not boycotting France, but feel free to if you wish. We do not need your money, we do not need you attitude. You’re absolutely right, spend it where it’s appreciated. The French can be rude at times, but mostly we don’t judge a man by the size of his wallet…
EU
France has countries surrounding them that are equal in their economic conditions. Canada and America have an unguarded border and we seem to get along all right. Mexico, on the other hand, is economically poorer than we are and the illegal aliens who cross that border illegally are coming to America for MONEY not freedom. Mexico is free. I noticed that you heard the word "shoot" and didn’t hear "or arrested when possible". Please give me a little credit. I believe that our military should be guarding our Mexican/American boarder instead of fighting 10,000 miles away from home – "To protect our freedom". Sorry but as far as I am concerned terrorists are crossing our Mexican/US boarder every day. You can not tell me that they aren’t. Can you tell the difference between an Al Quida Terrorist and a Mexican citizen?
Betyblue you wrote:
>don’t forget the millions and millions of foreigners in the U.S. who have obtained a Green Card or citizinship or who are in the U.S. illegally because they want to be, they have done nothing but show up and start a life in the U.S because they want to<
It sure sounds to me that you feel compassion for people who are here illegally. All that matters to you is that they want the chance to be free. By the way Mexico is free. They are here for MONEY plain and simple.
You also wrote:
>I am not going to leave this forum just because you don’t like what I have to say <
I never said that I did not like what you had to say. I listen to you even if what you say is stupid. YOU are the one complaining about what I have to say. Grow up and stop lying.
LesinOKC,
I don’t know about on site either. You can’t really tell what someone’s legal status is on site. Shooting anyone on sight unless you see them in the act of any crime is tyranny or at least if you know for sure. I think death could be to harsh a penalty for trespassing. We could deport them to Easter Island. Then we wouldn’t have to worry about them coming back. They’ll be forced to do nothing but eat coconuts and look at funny looking statues. Wait, that’s inhumane. Better yet just deport them to Canada. They’ll get free health care there. Yea right, after they wait in line forever.
Seriously I do think there are cases where taking up arms is about the only thing necessary. For instance in Arizona, towns close to the border are being raided by the Mexican mob. They’re looting their shops and braking into their houses to steal and rape their women. They’re ruthless and they murder anyone who stands in their way. The Government refuses to put troops on the border because of the UN. Especially not now! Because of this many brave men are posting out on the border to fire upon the mob when they come. It’s just standard fire arms verses the mobs automatic weapons. This is one this Bush hasn’t addressed.
I’m very much surprised that you care about this, but you think nothing on the UN’s invasion of our borders. They have bases all throughout our country with trucks, hum-V s, and all types of class 3 weapons stationed with troops from all over the world. This is a complete and utter violation of our borders.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
P.S. They took our troops stationed in Macedonia and forced to take off their uniforms and put on the uniform of the UN. (What on earth is that anyway?) Then they told them to either wear the Blue UN Helmet or Beret. Those who resisted were court marshaled. This was a complete violation of the Constitution, besides they didn’t sign up for that anyway.
Oh by the way if you all would like to hear Saddam’s music videos, you can go to:
http://video.pbs.org:8080/ramgen/wgbh/pages/frontline/1810/video1.rm
and
http://video.pbs.org:8080/ramgen/wgbh/pages/frountline/1810/video2.rm
These are for real. Apearently, Saddam had quite an ego. They’re pretty funny, if not sick.
Angry Les-
It is getting SO old having to explain the text to you that is in black and white. It would be a tremendous time saver if you could really read and understand what others are saying without putting your own spin on it because you are doing everyone here and yourself a disservice. RE-READ MY POST no where does it say that I feel compassion for people who are in the US illegally…
I am fully aware that Mexico is free and am not debating why people come to America. Have you ever been to Mexico? I didn’t think so.
Betyblue is right. She said simply what she saw. Not that she agreed with it or not. You were doing the same thing for when you answered my post about the Electoral Collage you apparently hadn’t read it very thoroughly. Then you would come back with a response saying yes Amero-Franc I see what you’re saying, when you had absolutely no idea what you were talking about. I normally wouldn’t comment about this, because it really just helps my opinion, but I didn’t want to leave bettyblue out there thinking that she was the only one what thought her comments were sane and sagacious.
I will, however, commend you for using the logical §-Statement §-Reason §-Conclusion method, unlike some of us out there. Ahem…,
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
Having been in France a number of times, I always go back hopping that the place and country will change. It doesn’t. It is the same dirty run down country as it was, right after world war two. The same nasty people,that are out for just one thing, and that is your money.
Cities that are so dirty and run down, that only the very rich can enjoy the best that France has to offer. I am told that there are some very nice places in France. I have been traveling that part of the world for over fifty years, and have never found, not even one that I would tell anyone they should visit. The people do not like americans and go out of their way to make you feel that you are not wanted. I could go on for hours about this awful country, but will not. My advice to anyone even thinking about going there is DON’T. There are to many wonderful places to visit in the world with out spending your time in France.
Amero-Franc and betyblue
Why don’t you two get a room?
I am simply saying that not all of the people betyblue mentioned came to America for grandiose ideals……or for the American dream. Many of them came here out of greed. Which I suppose is indeed the "American dream". I have no problems with people coming to America in search for freedom. Many come from repressive governments and many come here out of fearing for their very lives. It appears that betyblue associates successful Americans who came from these backgrounds are worthy of the "American Dream"….with all the rights of American citizenship. I do not. I believe that many come here for money and only money. Well then, let the illegal aliens make money in their own damn country, especially if it is a free country, and stay the hell out of America. That’s why they are illegal aliens to begin with. Yes betyblue I have been to Mexico as well as Jamaica and Cuba. I know what poverty in other countries looks like. It’s not America’s fault that they cannot make a decent living in their own country. America doesn’t owe them the right to make a decent living here. I really do not care if they come to America and eventually become good Americans. The ones who broke the law getting here should suffer the consequences. I don’t approve of the amnesty several of our Presidents (both Dem and Rep) have givin illegal aliens.
As far as shooting people who come across our Mexican/American boarder. You are correct Amero-Franc. I wouldnt shoot someone for simple trespassing. But I have the right as an American citizen to shoot anyone entering my home without my permission. As a nation, I believe America has the right to shoot people entering it’s home illegally. We just happen to be more humane than most nations and we arrest and deport the ones we do catch. But we also dont catch 3 million of them each and every year. They are here illegally and some of them are most certainly terrorists. It seems rather hypocritical to me to use the war on terror as an excuse to stop terrorism from coming to America from Iraq, when we openly allow them to come across our boarders illegally. I think we need to build a huge fence along our Mexican/American boarder backed up with a wide field of land mines and the American military. I have no pity for the illegal aliens who die everyday crossing the deserts in Arizona and Texas. Now if my attitude hurts your sensibilities towards non-Americans&I really don’t give a damn. France would do the same thing if it were happening to them. The French have just as much national pride as we do.
I really hate coming here on the weekends. But the discussions have been interesting enough for me to participate at this time. I am self-employed and work on a computer in my home 5 days a week. I try to save my weekends for my family. As such I doubt that I will be participating here on the weekends. Im sorry if you feel that my manner is rather repulsive to you. I have been debating at political BBSs for 10 years and I am rather hardened. The truth is..I dont know you people, I don’t want to get to know you people, I do not want to be your friend and I certainly could care less if I piss you off. If you expect more out of me, that is your problem.
red433
Simply put. You probably need your vision checked. You are wrong. There are many exceptionally beautiful places in France. Would you be happier if France tore down all of their historically old towns, buildings and narrow streets? I find them part of the charm of France. I find it curious that you have visited France for 50 years and continued to go to a place that you hate so much. Old and rundown is beautiful in my eyes. I tire of seeing everything new and improved in America. That is why I go to France.
I hope all of you enjoy the rest of your weekend. Oh and by the way&&..Oklahoma University kicked Texas Universitys ass today in college football. Life is good. I just love kicking Texican butt.
And this might surprise anyone but I think Amero Frank actually copies and pastes some of "his arguments" that’s why you get the funny symbols, I did it and it shows up.
EuropeanUnion2003,
First of all I have not copyed and pasted my arguments from someone else. I meley type them on another program and then copy and paste them. We in America don’t have accent marks on our keyboards. I have to just remember the character number. I can type a lot faster and I feel more at ease.
Secondly, I do not belong to the Church of Rome, However, I will come to the defence of some of the things they say regardless of whether they say it or not.
1. You asked previously, why we should care when marriage itself seems to be self-destructing.
Now, what does have to do with it? The answer to treat the symptoms would be to make divorce harder, not some hair-brained-sceam like "same-sex-marriage."
2. You asked why does it matter when Homosexuals can do the same thing.
Well, they would have to defeat to whole point of marriage. In order to procreate they have to cheat on their spouses.
3. Also the he used natural law to make his point which is something that most major religions understand, however, he mentioned nothing about what scripture says itself:
Romans 1:25-27
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
———–Romains 1
25 eux qui ont changé la vérité de Dieu en mensonge, et qui ont adoré et servi la créature au lieu du Créateur, qui est béni éternellement. Amen!
26 C’est pourquoi Dieu les a livrés à des passions infâmes: car leurs femmes ont changé l’usage naturel en celui qui est contre nature;
27 et de même les hommes, abandonnant l’usage naturel de la femme, se sont enflammés dans leurs désirs les uns pour les autres, commettant homme avec homme des choses infâmes, et recevant en eux-mêmes le salaire que méritait leur égarement.
Also, The Idea was not just invented in the European Middle ages. That is a total lie. In fact although you mention all of those 5 or 6 countries and seem to think that public opinion is working for you, you are actually in a overwhelming minority compared to the rest of the world and its cultures. The Fact is public opinion doen’t matter anyway.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
I am not, come to France, here in Paris our governor is openly gay. So you can imagine.
BAGHDAD (Reuters) – Iraq’s Interior Ministry dismissed as "stupid" a report in a local newspaper Wednesday that said three nuclear missiles had been found near the town of Tikrit.
A senior U.S. military official told reporters he had no information on the report in the newspaper al-Sabah. He said officials were checking the report.
Asked by Reuters about the report, a spokesman at the Interior Ministry said: "It’s stupid."
Amero-franc : nice try. Scan today’s headlines, nobody is seriously dealing with this news. It’s probably another big hoax, just like last time when they found that empty can of Dijon mustard, in the desert, remember ?
On the other hand, today everybody’s talking about the * 900 *. Do you think the toll will reach 1,000 before the election ? I think it will.
CRC
Amero-Franc,
Your posting is noted.
Again, I think it is easier to pass judgment, then to actually experience something. Admittedly, we know nothing of each others pasts, but it would be interesting to see how each of us would think, feel, and behave when faced with our own mortality.
When we allow our national pride to get in the way of our "humanity" we have a difficult time seeing things objectively.
War is not a film we see on t.v. It’s not something we can chalk up to "special effects". It is real death. It is terrifying.
And to look down on any culture because they would rather be choosey about the conflicts they get involved in, is unfair.
Peace to you,
Shanmac.
First of all Shanmac,
You are right you should not look down on another culture just because they’re different. I am not looking down on the French. I myself am part French. For those of you that are going to be bored with this little philosophical argument please bare with us, but on the contrary we should vew life as it is on a film. Not a video game where you can start over, but a film. A film because you should look at wars and conflicts as if you have no selfish connections. In a since you should be out side when you make the decision. I myself suppored the War in Iraq in general, but I didn’t sell my soul to Bush. I was objective. Forinstance I didn’t think he should have went to the U.N. a second time. That second time is what made alot of the world mad at him. He already had the power he needed in resalution 1441 but he had to get it reafermed. They didn’t and he had to do it against their will. But on the other hand how can I blame him for we all now can see all the consequences and he couldn’t see into the future.
Vive La Vrai France! Vive Les États Unis!
This is very funny! If americans want to boycott french goods let them do it! But remember that only 1 country which is the united states of america is boycotting France; whereas, almost the whole world especially the middle east countries are boycotting american goods!
Think of it a little bit this way dude.
In addition, people living in the states can’t boycott all french merchandises like wine and so on and so forth.
Au contraire,
Je pense que vin n’est que quoi nous pouvons boycotter probablement à couse de tous nos vins de California. Je ne boire pas le vin donc je ne la boycotte pas. Ils ne sont vraiment guère de un pays spécifique aujourd’hui.
Vive La Vrai France! Vive Les États Unis!
BONJOUR,
Allez c’est parti on Boycott tout!
comme ça on ne sera pas emmerdé !
vous avez raison !!!
bon moi j’y vais j’ai une pyramide de chèvre de Valencay et un Mac India qui m’attendent dans ma cuisine Hygiena.
CIAO
Monsieur,
Te Régarde! ton langue!
Is is just me or was there another obsenity in French?
Hello Administraters???????!!
P.S. If I’m wrong about this I stand corected. I’m not a native french speaker from France.,
Pouvons-nous parler anglais sur ce forum svp? Je ne parle pas français très bien mais je voudrais être dans la discussion.
Hey Amero-franc, Don’t forget that only poor people in the states drink U.S. wine; whereas, rich people drink the French wine which is way expensive from the U.S. wine. Nevertheless, France won’t be threatened by the boycott because as I told you in my previous message that only U.S. is TRYING to boycott French merchandises because of its stand against the bloody war on IRAQ but dont forget that because of this decision, almost all countries like France now more than before and some of these countries have decided to boycott American goods and switched to French ones.
Havent you seen the revolts in almost all countries against American businesses (like the one who tried to break the McDonalds Signboard&) even in the U.S. we witnessed many revolts and demanded BUSH to treat the weakness in the U.S. economic situation and the unemployment problems instead of financing his war plans.
Awaiting your reply.
Napoleon108 is right, let’s keep this forum in English. All posts in French will be deleted without previous warning.
As for the obscenity (emm…..), it’s funny but we do not feel it really is an obscenity in French. It’s a "gros mot", but not an obscenity, meaning it is not appropriate for small children. Since we figure participants in this forum are not small children, we’ll let it go.
However, please refrain from using obcenity in your arguments, as we will also delete messages containing them.
This is an important debate, let’s keep it on the level it deserves.
The Forums Admin
Now Im not in favor of boycotting French goods…..I think thats silly and as said before a lot of French goods arent even known to be French by the general population….like RCA is French….most people probably dont know that. But for the person saying a US boycott is not a big deal….The USA may only be one country but we represent the largest most powerful economy in the world constituting 20% of this planets wealth. The US has more money then the four biggest EU countries combined( Britain, France, Germany, Italy) with 3 1/2 Trillion to spare. So if America was actually serious about doing France’s economy harm there is no doubt that it probably could be done.
it might be said
It’s true Mr. Napoleon108 but remember that if BUSH proceeds with his plans the U.S. economy will start becoming weaker and weaker! Moreover, it is true what you said about turning the french economy weak if the U.S. wants to because they are used to play with countries economic situations in order to push them to accept what the U.S. wants to(like accepting the war on IRAQ).
I don’t hate the U.S. and I was with the removal of Saddam Hussein but not in the way which the U.S. did and now they are paying the price.
First of all I think that about the only French product we can boycott is wine. Regardless of what you believe, I think we all know that that is being hit pretty hard. Again I personially think that all this is not being done because we hate France it’s being done because we like France.
<a href=http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2003/3/20/233259>
Click first</a>
<a href=http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/893734/posts>
CLick second</a>
Also I think some of you need to know that boycotting things is just part of America’s culture. Even from the start when we started boycotting English tea.
<img src="http://www.geocities.com/impressionistic_man/nuclear.gif">
Vive la vrai France! Vive les États Unis!
P.S. rod I’m terrablly sorry about our little Mix up. I quess we are new to each others laguages.
Now, I do not boycott French products, because there are not very many products that are exclusively French anymore. When you try to boycott most French products you end up hurting more companies than just French companies.
However, I do not see anything wrong with banning products that are exclusively French such as Wine, Cheese and other things such as that. I dont drink wine or buy special cheeses anyway, so I naturally dont have the ability to boycott French products. These are the things that I think can be banned and if you do buy these products I would recommend buying American equivalents. And by the way this type of boycotting has really got its point across in the French Wineries and Cheese Factories.
Now, I realize some American try to take this personal out on the French. These people dont really know what the movements about. Please just disregard them. The reason why we are boycotting France is not because we hate them. It is because we are just trying to key in a good friend. Remember; The wounds of a friend are better than the kisses of an enemy. I realize that most Frenchmen dont understand what the boycott is about. Please dont take this personal. Its part of our culture to boycott. From the start of our country we started banning British tea. Ever since then one of the ways we got our point across was to boycott. Although France if the only country we are boycotting that I know of right now, we often have boycotts on our own products.
France has been our greatest friend through out the ages and I wouldnt want to see it fall over a little boycott.
Vive La Vraie France! Vive Les États Unis!
Now, I do not boycott French products, because there are not very many products that are exclusively French anymore. When you try to boycott most French products you end up hurting more companies than just French companies.
However, I do not see anything wrong with banning products that are exclusively French such as Wine, Cheese and other things such as that. I dont drink wine or buy special cheeses anyway, so I naturally dont have the ability to boycott French products. These are the things that I think can be banned and if you do buy these products I would recommend buying American equivalents. And by the way this type of boycotting has really got its point across in the French Wineries and Cheese Factories.
Now, I realize some American try to take this personal out on the French. These people dont really know what the movements about. Please just disregard them. The reason why we are boycotting France is not because we hate them. It is because we are just trying to key in a good friend. Remember; The wounds of a friend are better than the kisses of an enemy. I realize that most Frenchmen dont understand what the boycott is about. Please dont take this personal. Its part of our culture to boycott. From the start of our country we started banning British tea. Ever since then one of the ways we got our point across was to boycott. Although France if the only country we are boycotting that I know of right now, we often have boycotts on our own products.
France has been our greatest friend through out the ages and I wouldnt want to see it fall over a little boycott.
Vive La Vraie France! Vive Les États Unis!
Hello everybody,
well, sorry about the "bad word" that I won’t repeat for those who didn’t read it but it was just a french way to tell you that boycot is not a solution for you and for me. what are you looking for ? I think that you’ll be right when you’ll understand that the most important is to live as you intend to do by buying what you want to buy and not by restricting yourself on account of causeless wars.
Life is short: live it ! and I’m sure that eating french would be better for your health!
You’ve got to love the French. America decides to follow a half-witted president into a premptive "show" war with a near powerless country and then get annoyed when the rest of the world asks what the bloody hell is going on. America’s gone mad, that’s what’s going on. You say you hate communism and then bend over and let your government have access to all the domestic power it wants. They even track your library books, not to mention the removal of natural justice from your legal system. You are definately in pre-fascist state over there. Even I don’t trust ye anymore, and I’m Irish.
Close to a fascist state I dont think that America is quite there yet. It is said that the opposite of democracy is anarchy – so who is really to say at this point.
But, America has the biggest problem of thinking for itself. We preach free speech; yet, many of us blindly accept what the media states as the truth. Oh, CNN says it so it must be true. I am afraid that few Americans check out for themselves the information (or propaganda) they receive. They hear France is against the US and immediately people are boycotting and fighting for something they have not a clue about. I love America, but Americans just react and act we dont think. The French tend to think critically about things before acting. I think the world needs both sides of the coin (so to speak) to survive. Besides, perhaps America should solve some of the problems here first rather than jumping across the globe to Iraq. The world is not just the USs responsibility it is everyones.
PS The cosmetic and clothing industry is also affected by French boycotting.
Yukonsworld,
Do you really think that most Americans watch the Communist News Network? Yea we really watch that like a religion. The last time I even saw it was about a month ago.
You are right when you said that the French are very logical people, but arent you assuming that all the French didnt want us to go to Iraq. All you know is what Chirac and his UN delegate said. There was a poll awhile back that that said that 60% of Europeans are discontent with their government. Im not saying that most of the French supported the US in Iraq Im just saying that its not that Black and White.
I really dont like to get into name calling, but I could make a pretty good case that Canada is Fascist:
1. They banned a particular religious group from a university.
2. The Canadian Parliament banned a practical religious book.
3. They do not recognize the sovereignty of nations. (namely the francophone nation of Québec which was invaded and annexed by Canadian/British forces)
4. They haven and safely transport militants from other Fascist Nations to Canada and then across the border to the united States. (remember a lot of those 9-11 saboteurs crossed the border into the US.) Im not saying that they planed with the terrorist. Im saying they dont see those countries as dangerous as we do.
5. Although Fascism is not Communism and in some ways is the opposite of Communism, they do share one thing, socialism. (Because of their policy on socialized medicine the people from Québec who dont have all the money in the world are forced to look for facilities in New Hampshire and Maine among other places in the united States.
6. Banning certin Churches from saying certin things about their own religion within thier own house of worship.
Vive La Vraie France! Vive Les États Unis!
CNN is a mere example. Pick what ever form of media you would like! News paper, news network, whatever. Americans are some of the most ethnocentric people in the world! If Bill O’REilly says it, it must be true. If Bush asserts that such and such is correct then lets blindly follow. (I am being sarcastic, of course) We, as a nation, not as individuals, do not value learning about other cultures. How many bilingual Americans, in general, are there? Not many. So when controversy exists about France. Certain Americans take what is said on the news as the Truth – they fail to see the other side and are very narrowminded. That is my point. Sure the French come in all types, just like Americans, but again in general, they tend to be more critical of quick assertions.
As far as Canada, I don’t know about that aspect of its government.
hey look the admin boycotted french wtf.
Yukonsworld:
Funny,
It seems you know more about international politics and law than you know about the politics and laws of your our country. Also you seem to be a keen expert on U.S. Law.
As to bilingualism, may be you should go to Texas or Southern Calafornia. Ever wander why Bush knows Spanish?
Rod: Welcome again sorry about the little mix up. It may be we can speak French some other time since French was just banned.
Hello again Ameri-Franc,
As for terrorists entering the states through Canada, it wouldn’t have mattered where they entered from, because they had visa’s issued from the American government to attend flying schools, did they not? Therefore the border patrols would have had no reason to stop them.
I would like to think of myself as a responsible citizen of my country, so I am interested in what Canadian University banned a religious group, and what religious book was banned.I am asking sincerely, in case it doesn’t seem that way.
Can I be so forward as to ask if you are French-Canadian? Because the sovereignty of Quebec would be an interesting and friendly debate.
But please forward any info regarding the University and religious books that have been banned.
Thanks!
One other thing I would like to add Amero-Franc, is that it is actually more costly to go the states to recieve medical treatment. It is NOT only Quebecer’s that CHOOSE to go to the states for medical treatment. ALL Canadians have the choice of seeking medical care outside of Canada, but it will cost them a great deal more money. In Canada there are very few medical treatments that we have to pay for upfront. Our taxes pay for our medical care. Therefore, waiting lists are very long which is the unfortunate side effect. That is when Canadians who can afford to go across the border usually choose to do so.
Cheers.
In a very large digression, I will answer your comment. Yes, many people in the Southwest speak Spanish, I give you that. Many of those people are native speaking of both English and Spanish. However, I ask you why is it that most universities require 2-3 years of language studies, but many people cannot speak the language. If America is so Spanish language oriented why is it not a legal 2nd language. Although I can’t agree, there are many that are opposed to Spanish being a 2nd language. Why is it? Why is it that French is not more spoken in the North East?? Also, bilingualism is not a nation wide thing – sure it is in the main cities and very much in the south, but in rural America it is very much absent.
Also, Bush is bad example of bilingualism. He can barely speak the register of English required by a man of his political stature and a graduate of Yale. The man makes up new words by adding inappropriate suffixs, hence the term, Bushisms. Example, enablers, hemispheric. Not in the dicitonary. Sure making up words is great for Shakespeare, but for a country’s leader, he looks ignorant.
let me add an addendum, … Bush did use hemispheric and it is a word; however, how he used it is so inappropriate!!!
Shamac,
I am not a French Canadian, but I do feel that it is the natural order of things for any culture that has it’s own language, imagionary borders should have to be as a free country. I suffice that a confederacy between other cultures is a good idea as well, but centralized Canada is far from a confederacy.
This is why I’m not totially sold out on the idea of a centralized Iraq. But to keep the peace between the three cultures (Kurds Sunis and Shias)I think there should be some sort of confederacy. The Kurds have had their own culture since they had the ancient name of the meads. You see, I haven’t sold my soul to Bush. I still differ with him of some things.
http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html
By the way although I don’t live in Cadadia some in my Grandfather’s family were kicked out of Canada because they spoke French. There aren’t many in my family that speak French anymore if any. They weren’t the accadians they were a Huguenot group.
Here is an article about the ban on religous books. This ban would not just ban the Bible. But koran and any other religous miterial that this law disagrees with. I believe this article was posted before the bill was passed:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/984034/posts
I’m sorry I will I didn’t get the other article, but I will post in under P.S. in a upcomming post.
Vive La Vraie France! Vive Les États Unis!
Amero Frank:
I dont care if you boycott or not and you should address the msgs sent to you, not every single msg posted, here’s an example of what I was talking about before, GOD BLESS THE LAND OF THE FREE
where religion is a separate from state??:
Bush joins campaign against gay marriage
Endorsing a campaign by such antigay groups as the Southern Baptist Convention, the American Family Association, and the Christian Coalition, President Bush on Friday proclaimed October 12-18 "Marriage Protection Week." As part of their coordinated effort, far right groups are using the week to distribute antigay church bulletins to over 70,000 churches. In addition, Christian radio shows will schedule programming all week on banning same-sex marriages. The groups hope to make the debate over same-sex marriage–along with the proposed Federal Marriage Amendment–the number 1 social issue in the 2004 general election.
In his proclamation, Bush said, "Marriage is a sacred institution, and its protection is essential to the continued strength of our society. Marriage Protection Week provides an opportunity to focus our efforts on preserving the sanctity of marriage and on building strong and healthy marriages in America."
He continued, "Marriage is a union between a man and a woman, and my administration is working to support the institution of marriage by helping couples build successful marriages and be good parents."
The proclamation drew strong criticism from gay and lesbian activists. "We are shocked, appalled and immensely saddened that President Bush has sanctioned the so-called ‘Marriage Protection Week’ with an official proclamation," said Matt Foreman, executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. "Contrary to his statement, this ‘week’ has nothing to do with ‘building strong and healthy marriages in America.’ Rather, it is a bald campaign to demonize and defame gay people and our families, a shameful mixing of religion and politics. This attack is about even more than denying our families equal civil rights and responsibilities that are associated with marriage, but also seeks to deny any legal recognition whatsoever to our families."
Added Elizabeth Birch, executive director of the Human Rights Campaign: "It is reprehensible for a president who claims to be compassionate to pander to a coalition of extremist groups by joining their assault on gay families. The American people want to see politicians in Washington concentrating on the real threats to our families–an unstable economy, high unemployment rates, and uncertainty in Iraq–not guaranteeing that same-sex couples are left without more than 1,000 rights, responsibilities, and protections under federal law."
"The Bush administration has issued a direct attack on millions of American families on behalf of antigay organizations," said Dave Noble, executive director of the National Stonewall Democrats. "President Bush has failed to address even one of the thousands of issues that negatively impact our families, yet he has chosen to grant discrimination a federal blessing with this proclamation."
Meanwhile, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation called on the media to examine Bush’s support of the far-right agenda on denying gay people marriage rights. "President Bush has just endorsed an organized agenda of bigotry, discrimination, exclusion, and intolerance," said GLAAD executive director Joan M. Garry. "It’s critically important that the media ask the Bush administration and its supporters to defend their association with professional homophobes who seek to target, undermine, and destroy American families. Such attempts to deny protections to some American families are in fact an attack on all American families."
EuropeanUnion2003,
Then why are we arguing? We agree on the main issue. The Issue was should we boycott France. You said Americas evil and then you agree that boycotting is okay.
About addressing all of your points, I have addressed all your points that I know of. However, I dont really remember you giving many points anyway. All that I got were a lot of statements. Once in a while you would back up an argument by public opinion. But no real base. Im not saying youre stupid. In fact you seem quite intelligent for you seem to know about the world around you. Youre just making a lot of bad conclusions. Also Im not going to make you answer my points because not answering them only makes opponents look bad.
About mixing religion and politics together, there is nothing wrong with a President making religious statements. In the constitution (bill of rights) it merely says, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Notice it says nothing about the President.
About the gay issue again, one of the reasons why there cant be gay-marriage is because gay-marriage doesnt = marriage. I previously gave you a quote from the Websters 20th Century Dictionary it is less strong on that issue. The Websters Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary is considered the Dictionary with the most authority in court. It states, a: the sate of being married b: the mutual relation of husband and wife : WEDLOCK c: the institution whereby men and women are joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence for the purpose of founding and maintaining a family.
You mentioned earlier, what about all those gays who became great and showed bravery. Well thats really quite irrelevant. Its not their gayness that made them gay. Thats kind of like saying, The Bravery of Sergeant York in WWI proves the greatness of being heterosexual.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
My wife and I have been visiting France every year since 1995. We will continue to spend our money there and encourage others to do the same. We were opposed to George W. Bush’s illegal war in Iraq and time has proven just how much of a liar he was and continues to be.
If you don’t like France or the French people………don’t go there. I’ve seen too many obese "ugly Americans" there already. I am a 54 year old veteran and patriotic American who just happens to love France and the people of France. If you want to boycott something….boycott anything coming out of Texas.
If it wasn’t for the French…..America would still be part of England and slave owners.
Again,
I don’t hate the French. In fact I see many better qualities of France. I just think this boycott is to put a good friend straight. Please read my previous comments about the French.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
Okay,
I don’t hate French people and I don’t boycott French goods. What is made in France anyway? Everything is made is China. What will that help to boycott French goods? Um…nothing. I read a commet from LesInOKC and he said he hates George W. Bush and he’s a vetern. So I have a question for you man, who in hell was president when you were in the service? I would think that as a vertern you of all people would see the good in what Bush is doing. As for someones commet on this being and illegal war, how so? Whats illegal about it? I mean we are trying to save the world and at the same time free the Iraq people. They have weapons of mass destrestion. Does anyone know what mass destrestion means. Well for those that don’t it means they will destroy the planet. You get it mass destrestion?
You should re-elect president Bush. Someone said that they would reather have Clinton back. I mean why? If I was his wife I would have left him. He was probley the worst president in American History. vote Bush everyone. God bless America
AmeroFrank:
Again don’t try to force your opinions on the rest of the country. It is not acceptable that you say Religion and Politics are ok to use, because you yourself have expressed disaproval of islamic rules, doesn’t that make you similar?. Again I really doubt you can afford french products, and Europe certainly is not on the same page as you are when it comes to gay marriage, and certainly half of USA differs from you, THANK GOD. To all the fair minded americans out there, please gas all these people like Amero Frank.
theboss
I believe that the Electoral College was set up to tally up votes back when vote counts were taken to Washington via horseback. It is useless and needs to be abolished. It also allows peoples votes that live in smaller less populated states to carry more weight than those who live in larger highly populated states. Thus making a mockery of the one-man/one-vote ideal. You also failed to mention to EU that Gore got 500,000 more popular votes than Bush did……thus proving my point that the electoral college is obsolete.
Just as many American soldiers died under Nixon as did under Johnson. Nixon promised us "Peace with honor" but it took him 8 years to accomplish this and it was hardly "with honor". These facts along with the fact that he electronically bugged his opponents political headquarters and then lied about it and then covered it up…..was enough for me to hate the PIG.
I wonder what kind of hat you wear&a Dunce hat?
As you so graciously pointed out…back to the topic at hand. Please don’t revisit France. We have enough ugly Americans traveling there as it is.
You are correct about our visits to France. I should have said "every other year". my bad.
The Boss:
I don’t remember addressing you….but that fragment of my statement was taken from TIME magazine if you noticed the quotes.
Theboss- I obviously couldn’t have siad it better myself. Thank you.
LesInOKC- Again, you revert to below the belt personal attacks, childish, I expect that is because you can’t share your view without insulting others. I have a higher education, graduate level which part of was obtained in France. "what have I done to diserve the right of an American" you ask? I was born in America for one, I vote for two… and lastly and most obvious don’t forget the millions and millions of foreigners in the U.S. who have obtained a Green Card or citizinship or who are in the U.S. illegally beacuse they want to be, they have done nothing but show up and start a life in the U.S because they want to. You don’t have to "do anything" to be afforded the luxories America has to offer.
EuropeanUnion- your post doesn’t qualify a response. Once again, very angry, below the belt tactics. That is sad.
LesInOKC,
"I believe the Electoral College was set up back when votes were delivered by horseback…" Good grief, and you claim a "minor in American History". The Electoral College allows each state an equal say by giving them one vote per elected official in Congress. Yes, Gore did win the popular vote by taking the states with high populations. Bush actually won more states which is probably more representative of the country anyway. Being a history buff you probably know that this is not the first time that this happened.
An ugly American? You don’t even know me so how can you make a judgement like that? A dunce hat? I too came from very poor beginnings, have no college degree, but am a successful businessman. You on the hand are still poor, seemingly have a college degree and have to save for two years to amass the magnificent sum of $3,000. That’s about what I make in a week. The dunce hat seems to fit you quite nicely.
I do not know anything about you, but can surmise from your posts that you are a disillusioned and bitter man who is full of hatred.
I have read all of your posts and quite honestly find you not worth the effort it takes to further correspond. So, you can have the last word.
Take your best shot and make it a good one as others are reading this also.
Calling Texans Cowboys is an ignorant blanket statement. It is like calling Alaskans Eskimos.. Let me guess, Californians are blonde surfers and anyone from Utah is a mormon, right. I have some surprising and potentially shocking news for you…. it is now 2003!! Welcome!
theboss- thanks, that was refreshing and articulate.. you are a success in my mind.
EO2003,
What issue of TIME magazine will I find the statement you put into quotes? It is such a lengthy quote that I am sure that it must be at your elbow to be able to copy it exactly.
poor betyblue – maybe you would be better off visiting the Disneyland chat room. I understand that the Goofy thread needs some imput.
Since you condone illegal aliens entering the United States….what other illegal acts do you condone as a good law abiding
American citizen?
And I didn’t ask you what have you done to disserve the right of an American. I asked you HOW HAVE YOU SERVED YOUR COUNTRY? Have you spent time in the Peace Corps? Have you been in the military? Have you run for office? Have you done any charitable work? Or have you just been a freedom parasite?
betyblue,
Thanks. I just don’t understand what makes some people so hatefull. Could it be a Walter Mitty complex in that they could never say the things they do to someone’s face? I don’t spend much time in these chat rooms because people like EU and Les tend to drive out the rational folk.
Hi Gaston, nice to see you too! I must say that I think it has been longer for you. Where have you been? Your contributions are vital to this pulsing dialogue.
DrEska, Monsieur?
Alors, Vous croyez que Bush est la reincarnation d’Hitler. Pour quoi parlez-vouz Francais. Vous savez bien Angelais à dites "Swarz the N…" Si Chirac est très dévoué contre á Hitlerism, pour quoi font-ils un réacteur nucléaire pour Sadam?
Dear Amero-Franc
I wrote in French because the site is called France.com. I thought French was the Language. Sorry if I was wrong.
Secondly I never called Bush Hitler.
3rd. If your French is good enough, and I am not being sarcastic, you would see that, through theses puns, I wanted to say something I consider important. None of us, besides the high level politicians and secret services agents, French, American or whoever else, knows really what is happening.
We listen to the Media and we react as we are expected by our Gvts. I think we should be more humble and recognize that we do not know much. So let’s not start reacting and fighting like dogs around a bone. We don’t even know if it is a real one.
Merry Christmas to all
DrEska
Amero-Franc. What you are essentially arguing is that the U.S. has some kind of devine right given to them by God almighty to invade Iraq
because they do not follow earthly laws and that the USA is free from all human faults and sins. You sound much like those religious fundamentalists and bigots such as Pat Roberts and Jerry Falwell who think that the US is God incarnate and beyond any laws. As for your argument that earthly laws are flawed because humans that made these laws are flawed could be argued both ways. Well then since the USA is made up of humans that are flawed and sinful then the US invasion of Iraq was wrong and immoral also. However your argument would be the US follows some devine laws of morality and not earthly laws so it was morally justified in invading Iraq.
Your final point that the UN is trying to form some hegemony and empire over the world and inforce a standard of laws/morals that everyone should follow thus creating an empire is absurd. First of all just because the USA doesn’t abide by international law doesn’t make the laws wrong or flawed as you suggest. Laws need to exist because then you have anarchy. Those laws made in the UN were established through an unanimous agreement by all of the member nations of the UN including the USA so you cannot say that the laws
were established by a conglomerate. As for the UN trying to become an empire. Well that argument is absurd because the UN is an organization and not a nation. Only nations create empires and that is just what the US is trying to do. To inforce its own laws and
cultural norms on the rest of the world through military force and economic blackmail. Its actually the USA that is trying to be the office of God.
To All Americans,
I think most of the shall I say anti-French rhetoric is exaggerated and I’ll tell you why:
I’m a Canadian studying in France and I’ve visited many battlefields and memorials from WWI and WWII since I’m here. There must be hundreds of monuments scattered all over this country so numerous the battles were… Everywhere I’ve been to, people have greeted me with compassion besides my North American accent. Families have invited me for supper on numerous occasions and graciously talked a great deal about the contributions foreign countries made to France. Here is just a fraction of what I’ve seen or learned:
WWI: (150km around the Somme)
- Paschendale: 400,000 allied losses
- Somme: 60,000 Brit casualties in one day
- Chemin des Dames: 150,000 French casualties in 2 days
Here’s an epic story that lives in people’s memories around here:
Albert-Perrone: British infantry captain Neville knows his company is canon fodder on a planned attack the following day so on the next day he has whiskey at a bar with his men and later they play soccer while storming No Man’s Land. Two of the three soccer balls survived (no men). One is in a museum and the other is on display in that bar today.
The list goes on…
WWII, one needs only to go to Normandy to get the picture…
There are hundreds if not thousands such places around France commemorating Allies (you too USA) moreso than for the French ‘Poilus’ in WWI who paid the dearest price (1.7 million lives) or French and Free French soldiers of WWII.
My point? If a 9/11 memorial somewhere in the south (Muslim?) part of France was defaced by a group of teenagers, don’t shun a whole country for it no matter what Fox or CNN tells you. French people are genuinely hurt by your media and country’s attitude I can assure you.
I’ve been following news media here and in the US out of curiosity for comparison. I tell you, yours is scary and does have an agenda.
The rift all boils down to this:
Your pretext for war presented by Powell at the UN Security Council meeting was that Iraq had WMDs and were linked to Al-Qaeda. The majority of the World and the UN security council disagreed. They have not been proven wrong yet.
Today however, now that Iraq is chaotic, there is a hornet’s nest of volunteers for terrorism accross the Arab world which is exactly what France had feared.
As for this business of Chirac and DeVillepin vowing to veto any resolution on Iraq… your media missed a few details…
Hans Blix (Chief UN inspector) was supposed to table a report on findings (all knew the UN hadn’t found substantiating evidence) but before he was to present it, the US and the UK were maneuvering to quickly table a ‘make or break’ motion for war again on the pretext that Iraq had WMDs… By telling it would vetoe it, France was saying that your motion’s timing and grounds were unfounded and they were right.
The rest is history. Bottom line is that no respect for democracy was shown towards the UN even after the security council voted in majority against your motion for war (no vetoes there, just a straight vote)…
I just hope the ‘democritization’ process of Iraq will go as smoothly as possible and that you suffer no great casualties in the process.
One more thing, we all know about the hawks’ around Bush in Washington (Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cohen, etc…) affiliation with PNAC (Project for the New American Century) and that a war with Iraq was planned long before 9/11. Most of the World sees pre-emption as darn scary… I hope they know what they’re doing…
It would’ve been better if your government would have said something like "We have no proof at all of a threat of WMDs or links to Al-Qaeda but we’re not taking any chances, that’s why we’re attacking…" Have a UN vote on that, don’t worry about vetoes, it would have been 14 to 1 or myabe 14 to 2 with the UK. Would you have supported your government then? None of my business, it’s your prerogative, not anyone elses. However, everyone has a rigth to an opinion.
Finally, and I hope you’re still there, I had bought tickets for the Jets/Dolphins’ October 2001 game in Jersey two weeks before 9/11. We went anyways to show solidarity amidst the Canadian government’s travel advisory. We visited ground zero, talked and offered our condolences with a lot of people. watched the game, and spent alot of money during the vacation.
The World sympathizes with 9/11 and backs you 100% on issues against terrorism and Al-Qaeda (even if it may get worst because of the attack in Iraq)… Never forget that.
Josh
Josh:
You are so correct. You remind me of times when my wife and I could camp at Algonquin Provincial Park and we would talk politics with fellow (Canadian) campers. In time, we will get a better President and associated administration. Meanwhile, I look forward to visiting France and Canada this year. Thanks and regards, Donerail
I should have addressed my note to Acadien42 and not Josh. Pardon, Donerail
The US did a dirty job in Iraq. In my (humble) opinion, I don’t go to a party if I am not invited.French products? I don’t boycott them.
This isn’t for any one person in particular…just want to post something for everyone to think about.. food for thought so to speak… (not looking to be personally attacked).
How do you think things would be different if it was the Eiffel Tower that was attacked/blown up/flown into (by terrorists) and thousands of nationalities were killed? Do you think the French government would be upset? Possibly irate? Do you think it would have a dramatic effect on French tourism? Do you think anyone would want retrobution? Do you think it would be devistating to see innocent people die? Do you think it is ok?
betyblue:
It is difficult to deal in hyptheticals. After WWI the French were instrumental in placing severe penalties on the Germans. Many claim that posture facilitated WWII. It could be that the Arabs needed a wake-up call from the US or the West. What I have the most trouble with is our leaders running a line of jive by us. I was believing Bush/Cheney when they were telling me that Saddam was an immediate threat, that he had a nuke within weeks of being made, that he had WMD’s, etc. etc. Why couldn’t they just tell me they didn’t like the SOB and that the Arabs needed a kick in the ass? Plus as an added benefit, we would have improved oil stability for our gas dependent economy? Our Allies may be diminished allies at this point but they may look a lot less foolish. We’re spending at least $1,000 by every man, woman, and child in the for this cause in Iraq. For myself, I would rather spend the money on taking out Osama Bin Laden and rest of his savages. Donerail
Thank you for your reply, I appreciate your input. My hyothetical was just that, a hypothetical. Not about what happened in the past to one country or the other and how they responded but a direct question pertaining to the simple question posted.
betyblue:
OK, here’s a direct answer to your hypothetical: yes, the French goverenment would be upset and irate if terrorists bombed the Eiffel tower. It would probably affect tourism. The French government would then rebuild the tower. The French government would resist US requests to join in on the attack of another sovereign nation that was unrelated to the bombing. Hope that helps you, Donerail
Ridiculous.
First of all, VERY childish to boycott made-in-France products. Holding a grudge against millions of people that you don’t even know just because they didn’t think the same as you? Whoever said that you can’t have an opinion?
This is my message to everyone who’s boycotting French merchandise:
GROW UP.
Donerail,
Actuially, what bettyblue said is not just a hypthetical. In 1993 a plane was hijacked by some Islamofascists and was going to be flown into the Eiffel Tower. They were, however, stoped.
The differene is that there would have been something like "12" people killed.
You might say it has alot of symbolic value, however, it doesn’t really have much symbolic value eather. In fact the French have had to learn to like it. A lot hated it when it was first built.
What some people seem to forget is that it was the "World Trade Center" not the "American Trade Center." People from all over the world were killed, including from France. What do you think the UN would be saying now if those planes had hit, say, a few blocks up town. (meaning the UN Office Tower)
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
Magpie,
You said, "As for the UN trying to become an empire. Well that argument is absurd…".
Besides a government made from former nations, what would be a better definition? As you said,
"Only nations create empires…",
Magpie, you seem to think that I think "Bush has god in his closet, he pulls him out whenever he wants him, and no one else hears about him."
No, don’t you think there are some basic devine laws. When have I said that our invation of Iraq was a devine law? What I am saying is that the only thing I’m hearing is that what we’re doing is unpopular.
You said, "As for your argument that earthly laws are flawed because humans that made these laws are flawed could be argued both ways. Well then since the USA is made up of humans that are flawed and sinful then the US invasion of Iraq was wrong and immoral also"
No, What that means is that what we did could be wrong and that it could be immoral. The more power you give someone the greater ability he has to do evil. (He also has a greater ability to do good)
I don’t think Kofi Annan is the nicest guy on the planet if you know what I mean and giving him all this power just tips him over to almost pure Evil (I’m sort of joshing a little there about Pure Evil). Just ask someone who lives in New York. They’ll say he acts like a real jerk in public. Whenever he gets in a traffic accident he just gets off and walks away scott free. (thats because he get diplamatic amunity) He has armed guards that push everyone out of the way whenever he needs to just walk down the sidewalk. He acts like he’s some Empiror.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
What you forget in your "boycott" is most of french companies are international companies…you buy them without knowing they are french..lol. That s also why Frenc companies don t care about the Iraq market ban….they be on this market with their european partners!!! Exemple?? : Arcelor, leading european steel manufacturer. A french company…that sells in Iraq! By its spanish trade mark !! lol The only thing you can boycott is margin products such as wine , cheese (??) and that s all !!!
Bye bye , a french
Dr_Ness,
If you read some of my previous comments that is the reason why I don’t Boycott French products. As you have mentioned before about the only purely French products are products such as wine and cheese as well as some specialty cosmetics.
The Reason why I do not boycott those products is because they are the groups of people most likely to support the U.S. They really don’t like how their culture has been invaded.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
I think the reason why Chirac didn’t like the U.S. liberation of Iraq is quite frankly because he’s anti-Semitic. The word Semitic doesn’t just apply to Jews. It applies to all desendents of Shem.(or Sem) Arabs, North Africans ect.
That is why in France he just banned the Arab ethnic garb and now he’s trying to ban the jewish head covering, the Kippah.(Yarmulke)
He continues to pass restrictions on both groups of people.
This is an outrage and seems very Hitleresqe.
Wow. I didn’t know he banned the Arab ethnic garb. When did this happen? What was the response like? What is the penalty for continuing to wear it?
Thanks for the info
betyblue,
It’s an outrage. They are infrenging on freedom of religion. According to the Mosaic law Jewish males are always supposed to have their head covered. (That means always) They are forcing Jewish children from practicing their religion. (If you take away one period of time that’s still not always)
The Muslem Girls want to wear to head-scarf. It’s not like they’re liberating them.
If this is a reason for Jihad forget about America. Fraance is the new "Great Satan"(as they say).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/12/18/wfran18.xml
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/031217/afp/031217175844top.html
They really want all children to grow up to think that religion is just some old thing that is a thing of the past. To bring them into a some new age of reason.
When a country has no religious beleifs the government can tell them what to believe. This is the reincarnation of Nazism.
Ameri Franco:
Actually what France wants us to do…and the majority of "Old Europe" is to shoulder the burden of getting rid of a regime that France, Germany and Russia was making a lot of money off of…contracts…you know…weapons, etc…probably for "cheap" oil…
Actually, what Old Europe wants us to do is use our military might, our technological expertise, and human resources and last of all, but certain not least, our generous hearts to build this country called Iraq into a model for all Middle Eastern countries to emulate…
They want US, THE USA…to do this…BUT, in the meantime, the reason they voted against the war in Iraq is because the French, German’s and Russian’s stood to lose and have lost billions of dollars in contracts with Iraq…weapons…etc…for "cheap oil"? Now that they voted against intervention…NOW THEY WANT MORE SAY SO into how the country will be rebuilt…I mean…contracts…who will get them, etc…after all…THEY WANT TO MAKE SOME MONEY TOO…they just don’t want to "get their hands dirty"…sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, in a nutshell…Old Europe…wants USA to "take care of the problem"…we don’t want to help you, financially, emotionally, physically, or otherwise…but FOR GOD’S SAKES AMERICA…once you have almost single-handedly got this country up on it’s feet…LET US IN ON THOSE CONTRACT GOODIES…that’s what "Old Europe" is all about…For God’s sake…they needed and need our help just to defend themselves…Don’t we have a contract with "Old Europe" to come to their defense if they are threatened? How sad that some countries are takers and other’s are giver’s…it is an uneven balance…
When I think of all that America has done for "Old Europe"…the freedoms they enjoy, their economic wealth, their prosperity…it is all due to the kindness and generosity of American’s…and they still want us to protect them…but, don’t ask us for any help…you know…we are lover’s not fighter’s…how sad…
Ikorrellim-
Interseting point of view, very true and well said.
Let me laugh!
You ve been saved by french when english tried to keep you under their regime, so your freedom comes from France! Probably hard to swalllow so no more advice!
You waited 1941 to enter WWII! the start was 1939 so why WHY WHY did you ait so long to gently "saved" your allies?? You were probably too busy taking advantages (financilly) of this war!
We don t need any advice from a country were APARTHEID was tolerate and totally legal just 40 years ago ! YOU DON T HAVE ANY RIGHT TO TELL THE WORLD HOW TO BEHAVE! YOU WERE NOT A FREE country just 40 years ago ! (ask black ppl if i am wrong about it!)
Wow,
You guys are all over the place!
Sweird, whatever you want to think about Chirac, he’s no anti-semite. Do not confuse him with Mitterand. Where it gets a little confusing is that while definitely anti-semitic (all his actions prove him not to be), Chirac wants to be a friend to the arab street and its monarchies. To brand Chirac’s "muslim veil" policies as "the reincarnation of Nazism" is either plain stupid, or wholly irresponsible. Believe me all the Jews of France would rather be living in present-day Paris than in 1941 Paris.
The debate in France is not the way you picture it. Jewish or muslim kids can practice the religion they want, but not while engaged in state-funded secular schools. What’s wrong with that? A vast majority of the French agree. Chirac is no great president, but he’s a very shrewd politician and passing this law he’s got the majority of the French behind it, including many Jews…
Dr Ness, I don’t know where you’re writing from, but 40 years ago, French women did not have the right to vote and a brutal colonial war was going on in Algeria where people where only free to die. So what’s your point? America has the right to tell you how it feels about the debt France and Europe owes it. No question about it.
We may not agree on the conclusions America draws from this, but the debt is here, even if it joined France’s fight in 1941. The point is that it is thanks to the efforts and courage of the USA (among other countries, for sure, but mainly US and UK) that France is a free country today. Branding this incredible sacrifice as a way to make money is disgusting. Maybe the only way for you to fathom the extent of our debt is by shunning history. But if you want to contribute in a meaningful way, you’ve got some studying up to do!
Betyblue: I’ve been here , out and about… I thank you for your kind words, it’s always good to know someone appreciates you.
BTW, Happy 2004 !
G.
Gaston?
You said, "not while engaged in state-funded secular schools"
There’s another thing that’s stupid. If the administration in the school is supposed to be secular, they should be blinded to religion. To make such a rule the state would have to define religion and what religious garb is. When they see the head scarf they should say cool hat and just walk on, as if it had nothing to do with religion. And when they see a locket with a cresent moon, a star of David of what ever, they should just say that a pretty piece of meddle and walk on, acting as if religion is irrelevant.
Really the only difference between religous garb and ethnic garb is that religion has nothing to do with ethnic garb.
So if a girl that not a muslim covers her head it’s okay, but if she is a muslim and if they find out that it’s part of her religion then ,uh uh auh, "take that off." You see now Chirac needs to define what religion is.
I’m curious; has has he already opened up the department of religion. This is Bolshevik Russia.
Look I understand thay many of the Jew are ready to give in. That ‘s because most of tham don’t even wear the Kippah anymore anyway. the ones that actuially follow their religion are being forced.
WHO STANDS ALONE
Eleven thousand soldiers lay beneath the dirt and stone, all buried on a distant land so far away from home.
For just a strip of dismal beach they paid a hero’s price, to save a foreign nation they all made the sacrifice.
And now the shores of Normandy are lined with blocks of white, Americans who didn’t turn from someone else’s plight.
Eleven thousand reasons for the French to take our side, but in the moment of our need, they chose to run and hide.
Chirac said every war means loss, perhaps for France that’s true, for they’ve lost every battle since the days of Waterloo.
Without a soldier worth a damn to be found in the region, the French became the only land to need a Foreign Legion.
You French all say we’re arrogant. Well hell, we’ve earned the right!
We saved your sorry nation when you lacked the guts to fight.
But now you’ve made a big mistake, and one that you’ll regret; you took sides with our enemies, and that we won’t forget.
It wasn’t just our citizens you spit on when you turned, but every one of ours who fell the day the towers burned.
You spit upon our soldiers, on our pilots and Marines, and now you’ll get a little sense of just what payback means.
So keep your Paris fashions and your wine and your champagne, and find some other market that will buy your aeroplanes.
And try to find somebody else to wear your French cologne, for you’re about to find out what it means to stand alone.
You see, you need us far more than we ever needed you.
America has better friends who know how to be true.
I’d rather stand with warriors who have the will and might, than huddle in the dark with those whose only flag is white.
I’ll take the Brits, the Aussies, the Israelis and the rest, for when it comes to valor we have seen that they’re the best.
We’ll count on one another as we face a moment dire, while you sit on the sideline with a sign "friendship for hire."
We’ll win this war without you and we’ll total up the cost, and take it from your foreign aid, and then you’ll feel the loss.
And when your nation starts to fall, well Frenchie, you can spare us, just call the Germans for a hand, they know the way to Paris.
Nice to meet you, Brat
I guess you only boycott products from France. Or is there another country that shares the honour of such policy in your opinion?
I really don’t think boycotts can help resolving the issue. Anyway, if Americans want to slap a boycott on anyone who disagrees with their policy and especially what is going on in Iraq right now, you are going to have very few countries left to do business with!
Wake up guys! It’s not only France! But of course the French attitude and the cliches (arrogance, etc…) as well as a government prone on playing the rift for as long as they can, make France such an easy target for your anger.
You see, I think the whole issue is a lot more complex than to say: " The French are no valuable allies, they’re a bunch of spineless cowards". That is what sells on Fox News, but the reality is indeed more complex than that. Doncha agree?
G
Manray, I happen to support President Bush and the war in Iraq. For that matter, I think the war in Iraq was long over due. We should have taken Saddam out in the first war instead of bowing to the U.N. and stopping when he ran back over the Iraq boarder.
It would have saved thousands of Iraqi lives if we had.
Dr Eska: I’m still here…
The heat and humidity is getting me down, though…
The UPI is reporting that 3 missles carrying nuclear weapons were found in Iraq. They were concealed in a concrete trench northwest of Baghdad.
"The three missiles were discovered by chance when the Iraqi security forces captured former Baath party official Khoder al-Douri who revealed during interrogation the location of the missiles saying they carried nuclear heads," said sources..
Iraqi, not American forces, found these Weapons of Mass Destruction.
It appears to be your socialistic policy to delete messages that disagree with your position.
Those friendly people you met in France are not the majority that put the socialists in power in France.
Dear SLK 2344
THANK YOU OH SO MUCH FOR THE BEAUTIFUL AND VERY, VERY TRUE, EVERY WORD OF IT, POEM…I AM GOING TO COPY IT AND SEND IT TO SOME OF MY FRIENDS WHO WILL APPRECIATE IT JUST AS MUCH AS I HAVE…
P.S. I HOPE DR. NESS READ’S IT…I CAN SEE THE STEAM COMING OUT OF HIS EARS NOW…
Dr. Ness:
Besides Freedom Fries and Freedom Toast…We now have the Freenana…we renamed the banana…because it was appropriate…Yellow through and through and spineless…
I don’t get into the American Revolution too much…but, I am sure that if the French were here…they had a motive…and it wasn’t to save us from the British…
Hi all!
Just to let you know,
french ppl don t give a ***** of your little boycott thing, our business is in EU not in the USA (check out figures). We are more mature than you, you are behaving like a kid….that s a fact. You don t want to visit France? Who cares! China is waking up! They love france and love Paris…they are ready to take over you ( + don t give to much consideration of your visit, you are a few too visit compared to the number of tourists stopping by !)
Bye dudes!
You did not answered my question: WHY DID YOU WAIT 1941 to enter the war during WWII??? WHY i am waiting your answer, but i know it for sure (MAKING MONEY)
Dr_Ness,
I don’t always need to defend everything my country does because I don’t agree with absalutly everything my country does anyway.
The reason why we didn’t get into WWII right when it started was because we barely had an army. We only had a few thousand men. After WWI we kept our numbers down. Alot of people just didn’t want to enter into another bloody war I thought you didn’t like us getting involved in other peoples bussiness.
Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!
Ikorrellim-that was good, thanks for making me laugh!(Banana reference)
"….. so your freedom comes from France." That is almost as funny. I guess there are many differnt ways to put a spin on something.
Well it sure looks like this thread has become a lot more cerebral since KingMonkey left. However, he seems to have been replaced by Dr Ness and Sweird. Fortunately, we have ikorrellim, amero-franco, betyblue, and the magnificent gaston to inject some intelligence to the discussion. I thought I knew it all but, Gaston, you know your stuff. It’s great to be an American and we can travel to La France and enjoy their food, culture and wine. And we will probably have to save them from themselves sometime again. It is meant to be. Regards, Donerail
Dr Ness,
All right. Let’s me try to understand your argument for a second, because I certainly can’t see any logic in it. Acording to you, the reason the US defended France in 1941 instead of 1939 is because it was more advantageous financially to do it later rather than sooner??? Please explain.
Just so you know, until you can give me a damn good reason to think otherwise, I’ll stick to believing that the reason was actually that the US wanted to eradicate Nazism. Whether money was involved or not…
Ah, also, how old are you doctor?
Gaston.
(Hey, donerail, can I add "the magnificent" to my signature, I think it’d look pretty cool…;-)
Thanks for the reply and sorry for the confusion!
FORUM: Personally, I would like to see our FDA relax the restrictions on our ability to import that fantastic French cheese. On the political front, maybe the former Treasury Secy is trying to sell books, but his points have not been denied by the right wing cabal in the White House. Donerail
Dr. Ness:
Where are you? I am missing my laugh for the day…You remind me of Bagdad Bob…the Minister of Information…I mean Minister of Mis-information…We sure got some good laughs our of his BS…even the President remarked to a journalist as he was laughing, "He’s my Man"…Anyway, I guess as all things French, the heat got to hot in the kitchen for you so you put up your white flag and ran for the woods to enjoy your wine and cheese…Freenana?
hello people
there are a couple of things that i wanna say to you:
"You also have no idea who I lost in 911 either"
->Sorry about that, i didn’t mean to hurt you, this is not my point. I’m trying to debate on something i really care about because it implies two countries which i both really love for i’m french and i had a lot of opportunities to travel across USA.
"What I think would help you Moutaye is if you could consider the possibility of a devistation like 911 happening to a monument in France, killing thousands of people from all over the world, but mostly French. What would your country do? My guess is that they would want the US involved."
-> Now come on… France is a country that went through a lot of wars and Paris, like a lot of other cities, has been devastated many times. Personnaly, like most of the french people, a part of my family has been involved in many wars (WWI & II, Algeria, Vietnam and the list goes on and on…) thus we feel concerned about this situation for we have an experience that you don’t have. Plus France has been through wars before your country rised so don’t always say we would sollicitate your help systematicaly this is wrong. Actually we helped you out getting rid of the Brits 2 centuries ago and to define your own constitution based on ours. I’m not trying to compare anything, so don’t come over telling me that you helped us during the second world war for this is totally true and we’re still very grateful to the guys who landed in Normandy to save us, believe me…
The thing is that i worry about your feelings regarding the US intervention in IRAQ. I’m against this intervention for it looks more like a financial operation than a true attempt to deliver this civilization because now the country is in a total mess, it will take a long time to end this situation (IF they ever managed to…). Chaos is running all across IRAQ, creating opportunities for corruption and terrorist activities to settle down. More and more US soldiers are dying everyday as well as iraqi citizens. Have you heard about Afghanistan these days, try to get some objective informations on how is it going over there…it’s definitely not what the US thought it would be, now it’s nothing but a totally dependant country gained by chaos and despair.
I’m not saying that you need not to trust your media, i think you might consider that they’re not saying the truth systematically for they have interests in delivering a specific information to the US people…as well as in France some TV networks are turning crazy when it comes to talk about IRAQ, their connections with this or that corporation or political power is compromizing their objectivity
To Whom it May Concern on This Forum:
All of this praise for all things French got me investigating into France, culture, per capita income, travel, geographical areas, etc…and now, I personally don’t see what all the fuss is about…France sounds like a normal European country doing normal European things…and I read where lots of French run to the shores on their five week vacations each year…Someone on this site bragged about the French getting five weeks vacation a year…Lots of us in America get more than five weeks a year vacation…plus sick leave and 13 holidays…soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, except for national loyalty, I really can’t see what all the fuss is about…
And I don’t see why it is so important to "trash" us for Iraq…if you don’t want to help…why do you critizie someone else’s efforts…unfortunately, I do not think that anyone forsaw the "terrorist" acts being committed in Iraq by it’s own people, against anyone affiliated with what they call "occupation"…and now they want us out in June? What will become of them…I am sure that they are intelligent enough to know that things would get worse without the Occupiers there…I am sure that France, Germany, and Japan wanted their Occupiers out sooner also…but, if we had left…would you be where you are today? I doubt that very seriously…I am "hawkish" by nature and am very loyal to my country…as anyone reading between the lines can tell…I just think that the whole world owes a great debt to us…and we are not seeing much gratfulness in return…just a bunch of "bitchin" from people who cannot even defend themselves if they had too…that has been proven…time and time again, well at least two times in the recent past…
Hello all,
I wanted to comment on what Moutaye is saying, because this is something I read and hear about often, and I find it disturbing because not exactly truthful.
Here goes: we often hear the argument from Europeans (and indeed from some Americans as well) that the proof that the war on Saddam was a bad idea because this has turned the country into "a mess".
Iraq may be a mess, but it was worse than a mess with Saddam in power. And before Saddam grabbed power, it was even worse, and before that the Brits were in charge of Iraq and the situation ended up in a general riot. Before that? Oh, the Ottoman Empire that was handling the case so badly that the Brits got control of the whole area. In other words, Iraq’s a mess, that’s a fact, but in my book a mess is better than a cruel dictature that gases people based on their ethnicity. I’m not an Iraqi and, obviously, this is for the Iraqis to decide if this was a good thing or not. But, I, as a European, prefer a mess to a regime that feeds on the terror and murder of its people. And that does only go for Iraq but everywhere this type of regimes are in power. I thought that the respect of all human beings were at the center of European values. At least that’s the way I understand and cherish them.
As for Afghanistan, sure the situation is far from perfect. But let’s see, was it better when the Taliban were in power? Or the Russians? Or before that? As a pawn in the Great Game England and Russia have played for 2 centuries, Afghanistan has gone through one long war. A war that started way before Bush came to this world, and I’m talking of Bush 41 not 43!
G
As they say in the military, "It’s been real, it’s been fun, but it hasn’t been real fun"…on that note, this will be my last correspondence on this site…I have certainly been enlightened as to what Old Europe really thinks of America…and I have found a new site that is more to my lacking and leans in the direction of my thinking…it is called "F—France.com"…if anyone is interested…warmest regards from America, the Land of the Brave…God Bless America and and Troops…
FORUM: Sorry to ikorrellim go the way of kingmonkey. i have seen some good constructive criticism of US f